Novik on Fanfic

Author Naomi Novik got a terrific write-up in the New York Times today. She’s had enormous success with her first book HIS MAJESTY’S DRAGON and her husband Charles Ardai runs Hard Case Crime, another enormous success. This is a couple on a major winning streak in the publishing business.  Novik and I were guests on an NPR radio show about fanfiction a year or two ago.  We were on opposite sides of the debate…our opinions on the subject are very far apart. I was not at my best on the air, though, or in my posts about the show here afterwards. But that said, I was struck by an aside in the article:

Around 1994 Ms. Novik began writing fan fiction, stories based on the
characters of other writers. She called it “embarrassing, terrible
early work” that could not be published — thankfully, she said —
because it would be tantamount to copyright infringement on other
authors’ characters.

Either the reporter is mis-characterizing her views or Novik has significantly changed her very liberal attitudes on the subject since becoming an author herself.

76 thoughts on “Novik on Fanfic”

  1. I think you’re misreading that Lee.
    I think Mrs. Novik said she couldn’t publish because it would legally be copyright infringement, not because she had a moral conviction it was copyright infringement.

    Reply
  2. If that’s the case so did I. Since Lee is generally correct on these topics I’ll take that company. It was a quote. As a certified journalist myself That must have been what she said otherwise it would have meant “fanfiction is great and legal!” She viewed it as practice until the real work began. Fanfiction will always get you nothing until one leaves it for their own creations. Thats the take home lesson for the students among us.

    Reply
  3. She said,
    “Okay, so, I do have to put one small correction on record here (for anyone who has not read more than three entries back in my lj and doesn’t already know this about me) and say hey, yes, my 1994 fanfic was indeed terrible crap and it is embarrassing in the way that all juvenalia is embarrassing, but that was the stuff I wrote twelve years ago; I am very proud of my more recent fanfic and love writing it (a little too much, sadly, when I have pressing deadlines to procrastinate from).”
    and I quote her official LJ here,
    http://naominovik.livejournal.com/
    kete

    Reply
  4. That quote that Kete cites doesn’t address the key topic — whether or not Novik thinks fanfic is a copyright violation. So unless Novik explains more elsewhere, it doesn’t seem that she’s denying the quote in the NY Times.
    While it is certainly possible that the Times could misquote someone as egregiously as some have claimed, it’s pretty damn unlikely.

    Reply
  5. Don’t start nitpicking, David, of course she doesn’t think it’s copyright violation. If she did she wouldn’t write it and she has repeatedly stated her position on it on her blog as well as on the radio show Lee mentions above.
    I can’t access the NYT article any more, but it said basically that her fanfic could not be published because it would infringe on copyright and I have yet to see a fanfic writer who negates that.
    Fanfic writers do not publish. They share with their friends and readers for free – something pro writers certainly don’t do.
    kete

    Reply
  6. http://naominovik.livejournal.com/#item27324
    June 10 2006
    “….I love fanfic and am delighted that people are writing it about the Temeraire series. I can’t read fanfic written about my own work because of the potential legal issues, but you can find communities and other interested lj’ers by searching interests for “temeraire”. ”

    Reply
  7. Let’s see kete:
    Novik: the first blush of success
    Goldberg: 20plus years creating network tv shows.
    I’m gonna say Novik has a way to go on the success scale. And she is still mind boggingly stupid…a shoe that you might want to try on, Kete.

    Reply
  8. Kete,
    I’m not back-pedaling at all. I stand by the substance of everything I said. What I regret are phrases like “her arrogance and stupidity is mindboggling.” I should have attacked her opinions, not her personally. That was childish (And, for one thing, it showed MY stupidity, because the sentence should have read “her arrogance and stupidity are mindboggling.”)
    Lee

    Reply
  9. “Lovely, to see you back-pedaling now that she’s definitely more successful than you! ;-)”
    Um, how do you figure she more successful that him? She’s sold three books to her publisher and the movie rights to Peter Jackson. That’s terrific. But Lee has written dozens of books, written and produced dozens of TV series, and continues to do so. I don’t know him, but I suspect he has made millions of dollars over the course of his career. Novik may do the same, but she hasn’t yet.

    Reply
  10. ummm…not sure how this has become a pissing contest as to who is more succesful… Lee Goldberg suggested that Ms. Novik had changed her ideas about fanfic once she herself had a “property” worth protecting; Ms. Novik’s statement of June 10 suggests otherwise…

    Reply
  11. ummm…not sure how this has become a pissing contest as to who is more succesful… Lee Goldberg suggested that Ms. Novik had changed her ideas about fanfic once she herself had a “property” worth protecting; Ms. Novik’s statement of June 10 suggests otherwise…

    Reply
  12. They share with their friends and readers for free – something pro writers certainly don’t do.
    False. The late John M. Ford’s friends cherish the chapbooks he sent them at Christmas, to give just one example. Many writers now put short stories and other lagniappe up on their Websites.

    Reply
  13. “Fanfic writers do not publish” Really? What does posting this sort of playacting online amount to? That’s legally “fixed in a medium with marks, and available to the public, which for legal purposes is enough. I agree with David M. she isn’t refuting anything with that quote. She made a big score, no question.
    I read part of an excerpt and aside from the interest in sailing to Istanbul, transporting Dragon eggs is plain ridiculous to me personally. I couldn’t read it.

    Reply
  14. But what about the Novik quote from June 10?
    That quote confirms that Novik is okay (“delighted” in fact) with people doing fanfic based on her own work. This is a contradiction of Lee’s suggestion, that Novik changed her mind on fanfic once she’d become a published author.

    Reply
  15. “”Fanfic writers do not publish” Really? What does posting this sort of playacting online amount to? That’s legally “fixed in a medium with marks, and available to the public, which for legal purposes is enough.”
    Oh, Mark, does that mean I’m a published writer now, because my fanfic is online?
    kete

    Reply
  16. “What I regret are phrases like “her arrogance and stupidity is mindboggling.”
    Of course you do. Because wouldn’t you just love to be published by Hard Case Crime. Which is unlikely to happen, when you insult the wife of one of the co-owners.
    kete

    Reply
  17. “Um, how do you figure she more successful that him? She’s sold three books to her publisher and the movie rights to Peter Jackson. That’s terrific. But Lee has written dozens of books, written and produced dozens of TV series, and continues to do so.”
    Well, I suppose her sales are even now higher than anything he has ever written. And will increase with every book that’s coming out (she’s sold three more already). And while he has produced some geriatric TV shows, her work has been bought by a cult-director for the big screen….
    kete

    Reply
  18. “They share with their friends and readers for free – something pro writers certainly don’t do. –
    False. The late John M. Ford’s friends cherish the chapbooks he sent them at Christmas, to give just one example. Many writers now put short stories and other lagniappe up on their Websites.”
    Ain’t you clever. But sending friends stories for x-mas and posting teasers online, hoping for more sales, isn’t inherently the same as posting free material. Its free availability is one of the defining qualities of fan made fiction, while its mercenary potential is one of the qualities of pro-fiction.
    kete

    Reply
  19. . Because wouldn’t you just love to be published by Hard Case Crime. Which is unlikely to happen, when you insult the wife of one of the co-owners.
    Oddly enough, publishing doesn’t always work like the politics of junior high school.

    Reply
  20. okay, this exchange has now gone very far afield from Lee Goldberg’s initial post, to no apparent end…
    Lee Goldberg suggested that Ms Novik changed her point of view about fanfic since she became a published author. But Ms Novik’s statement that she’s “delighted” with people doing fanfic based on her work suggests the opposite.
    I’m still curious to know what Lee Goldberg makes of her June 10 posting – this was after the second book had been published.

    Reply
  21. It’s all well and good for Ms. Novik to be “delighted” at fanfic based on her work – yet she won’t read it due to legal issues. In short, she knows it’s a copyright violation – and reading it and not stopping it is tantamount to LOSING her copyright protection.
    Kete, I don’t know what you do for a living, but it’s clear based on your posts that you don’t truly understand that professional writers actually, you know, WORK FOR A LIVING. They have this compelling need to eat, pay bills, etc., and they do so by selling what they write. It’s not the oldest profession, but it’s close. In ancient cultures, the storyteller was often held in the highest esteem, his needs – food, shelter, etc. – taken care of by others. Same principle.
    I’ve read Ms. Novik’s work – it’s quite good and she’ll only get better. She’s had some extraordinary success and anytime a writer does that well, it’s good news. That said, her attitude toward fanfic is almost inexplicable to me. All that success and she clearly doesn’t care about it enough to protect her copyrights – which is, btw, what she SELLS to the publisher(s).
    Beyond that, coming to Lee’s blog to be an asshole and get some of yours back because he doesn’t like fanfic is a little like putting lipstick on a pig.
    Cheers,
    Russell Davis

    Reply
  22. A brief point of clarification: she sells rights to her publisher, not the copyright itself. But the two are tied together.
    Cheers,
    Russell Davis

    Reply
  23. I think it says a lot about Lee Goldberg that he allows people to come on his blog and call him an asshole. It says something about his character and his lack of ego. He doesn’t mind if people have views different than his own, even though he has strong opinions. And he acknowledges his mistakes (like calling Novik stupid) but doesn’t go back and try to erase what he did. He owns up to it instead. I don’t know him, but I like him already. Kete’s character comes out loud and clear, too. I don’t know Kete, but I know I don’t like her.

    Reply
  24. I know that it wouldn’t be much fun that way…but if you don’t like what Lee has to say, couldn’t you just not visit his website? It’s not like he shows up on your doorstep to make fun of you.
    Although that would be entertaining. It could be a new reality show!

    Reply
  25. Russell Davis: I’ve read Ms. Novik’s work – it’s quite good and she’ll only get better. She’s had some extraordinary success and anytime a writer does that well, it’s good news. That said, her attitude toward fanfic is almost inexplicable to me.
    It’s clear that it’s inexplicable to you (and others!), but since her attitude isn’t completely unique and other very successful authors share it maybe there’s something not completely insane to it? I would guess that Ms Novick sees fanfic as something that encourages sales of her books and a natural reader reaction to a story that grabs them. I’ve never wanted to write fanfic on paper but I have essentially written it in my head or made up stories verbally with friends since I was a kid. She seems to respond to books the same way, so fanfic to her isn’t an attempt to steal.
    I don’t find authors who oppose fanfic inexplicable (I am a published author but have never written anything that inspired fanfic and have written several tie-ins) but I have found that a lot of their arguments against it seem to cross the line of what a writer can reasonably demand.
    It seems very often the trouble with these discussions is both sides assuming that people start out seeing things the same way when they don’t–and also that it gets sidetracked into nebulous arguments of who’s a “real artist” that get silly.

    Reply
  26. Dude, your obsession with fanfic and fanfic writers is starting to border on creepy. I think by now everyone knows where you stand and these repeated attacks just serve to make people wonder why it matters to you so damn much.
    Seriously, man, you might want to think about moving on.

    Reply
  27. Telesilla,
    Instead of wasting precious moments of your life detailing why other people’s obsession are reprehensible, you might instead choose to spend some hard time on your own writing…you can’t find dialog this hot in most Viggo Mortensen & Orlando Bloom slash:
    http://telesilla.livejournal.com/486935.html#cutid1
    “Oh fuck,” Viggo mutters, grinding up against Orlando. “Want you now,” he adds, and it’s almost scary how true that is; he wants Orlando so incredibly fiercely now that he’s almost shaking with it.
    “Want to fuck you,” Orlando breathes, fumbling with Viggo’s fly until he can shove the jeans down. He cups Viggo’s cock in his hand and gives it a rough stroke, groaning, and then pulls away to strip himself down.
    “Yeah,” Viggo says, hoping like hell that Orlando has some stuff with him, because he really wants to be fucked. “Here,” he says, turning to face the wall. “Now.”
    Orlando digs into a pocket and finds a condom. That’s got to go on first because once he’s done fucking about with lube he won’t have the patience to try to fit the condom on. Then he’s slicking his fingers, rubbing them together and shoving two into Viggo sharply, pressing up against his back.
    “Reminded me of us that first night,” he breathes into Viggo’s ear. “All heat and smoke and beer.”
    The talent…it burns.

    Reply
  28. I’ve got a question, appropos of Russell Davis’s post. As he points out, respect for the storyteller is a traditional part of culture. If you look back a hundred years or so, there’s the popular Romantic idea of the writer as touched by the divine, the special individual, and so on. At many, many points in history, good writers are among the most praised people in the world. Most people nowadays don’t consider writers touched by the divine, but they do respect them. I remember a friend of mine, a very talented writer, living on a university corridor next to some engineering and science grads, who asked her in a reverent whisper, ‘Do you … WRITE in your room?’ Generally speaking, writers are pretty much admired.
    Except, it seems, in the hard-core fan communities. It’s odd, as these are the people who are most dependent on their work, but somehow, you get fans seeing writers as DJs who take requests, as Lee previously put it, or as recalcitrant employees who ought to take the darn money, shut up and be grateful, or as parasites who demand money and are morally inferior to amateurs, or as abusive parents who refuse to humour their readers out of spite, or as tinpot dictators who have the nerve to expect fans to respect their wishes. There’s a definite tone among the harder core of anger, outrage and contempt.
    Where does this come from? I don’t think most genres treat their favourite writers this way, even nowadays. And with things like science fiction and fantasy, which struggle continually to get the respect they deserve, you’d think it would benefit the community if charity began at home. After all, what outsider will respect a writer who seems to be despised by their own fans? What is it? Do all the slurs of non-genre critics just render people touchy, even towards their favourite authors, or are people buying in to the fallacy that genre authors are just hacks, or what’s the reason? I’d really like to know.

    Reply
  29. “respect for the storyteller is a traditional part of culture. If you look back a hundred years or so, there’s the popular Romantic idea of the writer as touched by the divine,” said Ey-up.
    “Were _Beyond the Beyond_ a _Star Trek_ fanfic — and that’s not such an impossible conceit as it would seem — the fan posting it
    to alt.startrek.creative would thoughtfully label it NC-17. It’s pornographic, scatological, ultraviolent, and generally
    over-the-top…While he happily descends into the gutter about such things as what a lunatic sex-obsessed fan calls his penis (“superwarp plasma pleasure warhead,” in case you’re wondering), or what a nauseating female fan uses for personal pleasure (a homemade vibrator in the shape of Mr. Snork’s elephantine nose)…I will also note that despite the author’s decision to throw in sex and gratuitous violence on a level usually to be found in those dull anime series about virginal Japanese schoolgirls being repeatedly raped by armies of demons whose phalluses are powerful enough to do to Tokyo what Godzilla only dreamed of, Goldberg writes *lousy* sex
    scenes…when Shari Covina kills
    Conrad Stipe by smothering him with her huge breasts (the better
    to inherit his merchandising rights). In the throes of death,
    Stipe bites off a nipple (to give you an idea of the depths of
    lousiness to which Goldberg can sink, she *enjoys* it)”
    Lee Goldberg: Touched by the Divine.
    http://www.geocities.com/~fossilfreak/books/btb.htm
    With compliments, kete

    Reply
  30. “Except, it seems, in the hard-core fan communities. It’s odd, as these are the people who are most dependent on their work, but somehow, you get fans seeing writers as DJs who take requests, as Lee previously put it, or as recalcitrant employees who ought to take the darn money, shut up and be grateful, or as parasites who demand money and are morally inferior to amateurs, or as abusive parents who refuse to humour their readers out of spite, or as tinpot dictators who have the nerve to expect fans to respect their wishes. There’s a definite tone among the harder core of anger, outrage and contempt.”
    So I think we can agree that today it’s pretty obvious that very few people consider authors deities. There are people who dislike the author’s work trashing their books. There are people indifferent to the author’s work who might also trash them casually. And then there are hard-core fans who fall in love with some aspect of the work and when they think it’s going the wrong way care that much more and so complain about it that much more. Some of them are assholes as well. But is that really surprising? (Though some are fans of the author themselves and consider anything the author does to be great.)
    Not all fan criticism is valid–you can be a fan of something and have no good sense of story at all. I think we’re all ultimately glad that fans don’t run how things go. But nor does being a fan/viewer/reader mean your criticisms are invalid either. Sometimes they’re right on the money.
    So the bottom line is: audiences of anything are made up of people, and people are always going to share their own opinions. This to me just seems like the risk anyone takes when they write a good story. If you draw people into your world enough that the world has a life of its own, there’s going to be more pressure. You’re kind of playing with fire engaging peoples’ imaginations.

    Reply
  31. “Touched by the Divine”
    Does the divine only ever touch pro writers? Or does it touch fan writers, too?
    How does te divine know whether someone is a pro or a fan?
    Does the divine know and care about such mundane things as copyright?
    How does the divine make sure the writer uses the touch in the appropriate form?
    When the divine touched Naomi Novik to make her write Temeraire, what would it have done if she had decided to write some filthy SGA porn instead? Would the divine have taken its touch back?
    Questions over questions…

    Reply
  32. Yikes. I haven’t looked at this thread in days and it’s amazing how the conversation has devolved.
    I don’t much like my blog being used to call me an asshole, nor do I like it being used to call other people assholes (unless I am the one doing it, of course).
    Ordinarily, though, I tend to err on the side of not meddling in the discussion to encourage a free exchange of views. But this is getting out-of-hand (as it is in the Publish America discussion).
    Kete is right — it’s wrong to slur her using Hitler comments and I will delete them. I find that as distasteful as she does.
    But Kete, the others are right, too. You are every bit as abusive to others. And I will delete any of your comments that cross the line.
    I am also going to take a stronger stand on people calling me an asshole… or threatening me. This is my blog, after all. My home. You are welcome to disagree with me here, and to do so loudly, but I won’t tolerate any more personal attacks.
    Those who continue will be banned from posting.
    Lee

    Reply
  33. “But sending friends stories for x-mas and posting teasers online, hoping for more sales, isn’t inherently the same as posting free material.”
    Uh. Giving people things for free isn’t the same as giving people things for free?
    Well, okay. Obvious really, once you point it out. Good thing you have those ESP powers, otherwise who knows what we might think?
    “Its free availability is one of the defining qualities of fan made fiction, while its mercenary potential is one of the qualities of pro-fiction.”
    Professional = “following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain”
    So what you’re saying is that one of the qualities of pro-fiction is that people do it for money? Well, uh, yeah. That’s why they call it ‘professional’, because, um, you get paid for doing it.
    And regardless of Novik’s opinions about the worth of fanfic, the fact that she won’t read it for fear of legal issues says all that you need to know, IMO.

    Reply
  34. “It’s all well and good for Ms. Novik to be “delighted” at fanfic based on her work – yet she won’t read it due to legal issues. In short, she knows it’s a copyright violation – and reading it and not stopping it is tantamount to LOSING her copyright protection.”
    Uh. No. Most writers, television and book alike tend not to look at other unsolicited works, especially in their own universes because there have been incidents of those people then turning and sueing the author for stealing THEIR idea.
    It’s far more about covering her own ass than worrying about copyright I’m sure.

    Reply
  35. Hello,
    I’m not saying I personally think writers are touched by the divine, I’m just saying that traditionally there’s a lot of kudos attached. That doesn’t mean people don’t criticise their work; I was more wondering at the way fans consider themselves entitled to boss authors about, which is something different. I was wondering why; I don’t think saying that some people are assholes really explains anything. I was wandering a bit off-topic, because something in Russell’s post caught my attention; hope nobody minds. If so, please feel free to ignore me.
    And I’d like to agree with Lee about civility; if we play nice, we’ll all have a better time. To which end – have a nice day, everyone. 🙂

    Reply
  36. Ami Smith said: “Uh. No. Most writers, television and book alike tend not to look at other unsolicited works, especially in their own universes because there have been incidents of those people then turning and sueing the author for stealing THEIR idea.
    It’s far more about covering her own ass than worrying about copyright I’m sure.”
    Uh. Yeah. What you say is another element of it, yes, but a failure to defend your copyright can legally result in your losing certain protections under the law.
    R.

    Reply
  37. “I’m not saying I personally think writers are touched by the divine, I’m just saying that traditionally there’s a lot of kudos attached. That doesn’t mean people don’t criticise their work; I was more wondering at the way fans consider themselves entitled to boss authors about, which is something different. I was wondering why; I don’t think saying that some people are assholes really explains anything.”
    I’m not sure if this was directed to my response, but I’ll explain. When people’s imaginations are fired up by a story, it means a lot to them. So they react more passionately when they feel the story’s being handled badly. Sometimes they don’t know the difference between what they want to happen and handling the story badly–for instance, they want X/Y to wind up together, and instead it’s Y/Z who wind up together. Other times a fan can express valid criticism of the way a story is being handled, and people being people both of these kinds of things sometimes get expressed in a rude way. It’s easy to sit outside a story and say how much better you could write it–think of how sports fans complain about how professional athletes perform. Same thing. It’s much harder to actually create a story and tell it.
    It just seems like it’s a double-edged sword. If people get involved enough in the story that they feel the story has a life outside of you as the author, there’s more pressure on you as an author to serve that story. There can be two fans both expressing the same valid criticism, but only one will come across sounding rude and self-entitled–and I don’t think this is a recent thing at all. It’s just more obvious now because you can always see it on the Internet, and fans and creators have been brought so much closer together.
    That’s the thing about being an artist, particularly an actor or a writer–many times what people like about you simply isn’t you, it’s your creation. As a writer of fiction especially you’re creating fictional people for people to interact with in their imagination. You’re often most visible as an author in your weakest writing moments, imo.

    Reply
  38. Russell Davis said:
    “a failure to defend your copyright can legally result in your losing certain protections under the law.”
    I know that’s true for trademarks, but how does it apply to copyright?

    Reply
  39. Thanks for the post, Dene. But still – the sports-fan analogy is very interesting and probably apt, but … why are readers acting like sports fans? After all, the way a game goes is up for grabs, and a lot has to do with chance, whereas the way a story goes is preplanned and dictated by the wishes of a single individual. That’s what really puzzles me: authors are the ones who actually know that it’s not like a sports game, but when they say that, hardcore fans don’t seem to believe them. They just get madder. It’s like refusing to believe there’s anything other than good sportsmanship and the laws of chance at play in a pro wrestling match, and getting furious with a wrestler who tries to explain that it’s all a circus – then insisting that, as a long-term wrestling fan, you know more about it than he does.

    Reply
  40. “To my knowledge copyright can’t be diluted as with a trademark. A lawyer verification? CEP?”
    Also it’s fully possible to be in complete control of your copyright (as I too beleive that can’t be diluted, unlike trademark) and be sued for plagiarism. That is, stealing a plot idea that isn’t theirs.
    Which has happened before (Marion Zimmer Bradley) and resulted in loss of money because the book in question was never published.
    That is what I was refering to when I mentioned covering all your bases (was more crass then, appologies) by not reading fanfiction. And why I beleive Naomi is against reading fanfic about her own works.

    Reply
  41. That sounds about right but you can’t steal a plot per se, but substantially similar expression of said work. Even though it isn’t easy to prove even when it’s obvious as Lew Perdue can attest.

    Reply
  42. That’s an interesting point about being unable to steal a plot per se. Might that be one of copyright problems with writers reading fan fic? After all, if Jane Smith writes a story about a character of her own getting into a quarrel with his best friend that isn’t resolved until there’s a dramatic rescue, say, then if JK Rowling writes a similar story, Jane Smith is going to have a tough time suing her. If, on the other hand, Jane Smith writes the same story about Rowling’s hero, then if Rowling writes the same tale, it’s by its nature going to be closer to Smith’s. Which Smith may take as grounds for a plagiarism case. By lifting characters from Rowling, she’s created a link which goes further than the generic story.
    Which is very unreasonable, of course. Personally I think there’s a case to be made that it ought to be declared legally impossible to copyright fan fiction; it might solve a lot of problems. Pro-ficker people on this site: would you have a problem with that? If so, why?

    Reply
  43. I was mainly referring to moral rights, which are part of copyright law. Beyond that, while a copyright cannot be diluted (like a trademark), an undefended copyright creates a scenario whereby the author – who has acknowledged and allowed fan fiction to be published – no longer has a strong case in court for future violations of copyright in regards to that work. Defense can claim, “Author didn’t do anything about this other piece of fan fiction. Author acknowledged said fan fiction and called it good. On what grounds does Author claim that the fan fiction of my client should be treated differently?”
    Cheers,
    Russell

    Reply
  44. Would that hold up if the author had always said ‘I don’t want to know, nobody send me anything and I won’t look for it’? I mean, would they have to aggressively defend their copyright by going out and looking for fan fic, or would they just have to not publicly acknowledge that they knew it was happening and they didn’t mind?
    🙂

    Reply
  45. Dude.
    Let’s parse this shall we?
    1.) She said her early work was beginners work, thus not ready to be published.
    2.) PUBLISHING (for profit) was seen as copyright infringement — benefitting from someone else’s ideas. Not playing with, benefitting.
    And I heard you, you weren’t at your best.
    That being said, don’t worry about fannish derivation of your works, because mostly? Your work doesn’t strike me as the type to inspire that sort of creativity.
    MK

    Reply
  46. “Personally I think there’s a case to be made that it ought to be declared legally impossible to copyright fan fiction; it might solve a lot of problems. Pro-ficker people on this site: would you have a problem with that? If so, why?”
    Hm, well, while the characters and the universe I write in are of course someone else’s invention and property, the specific story I’m telling using their characters/universe is still mine and I would dislike for someone else (as in another fic writer) to appropriate it and claim it was theirs. I wouldn’t mind if someone wrote fanfic about my fanfic, mind you (that really happens sometimes – though not for my work), but I wouldn’t like to be plagiarised.
    On the other hand, if the original author/creator appropriated some of my work (I should be so lucky…) I think that should be legal, as I would consider every toy found in their sandbox to be theirs. At least that’s my two cents on this.
    kete

    Reply
  47. Thanks for the civil post, Kete, much appreciated. Do you not think that the risk of plagiarism (which wouldn’t affect you financially) would be a fair price to pay for the assurance that nobody would pull an MZB and sue a book you were looking forward to reading out of existence?

    Reply
  48. “Thanks for the civil post, Kete, much appreciated. Do you not think that the risk of plagiarism (which wouldn’t affect you financially) would be a fair price to pay for the assurance that nobody would pull an MZB and sue a book you were looking forward to reading out of existence?”
    Sorry, Ey-up, I only just saw this. To my dismay I must admit that I don’t quite uderstand your question. Do you mean I should agree to another fanwriter claiming my fic as theirs if that would mean the original author would, could… now I’ve lost my thread and my thought. WHAT do you mean? How are the two connected in your mind? Is puzzled.
    kete

    Reply
  49. Hi Kete. Basically: I said, what would people think if fan fiction were declared impossible to copyright, in order to protect authors from lawsuits of the kind that forced Marion Zimmer Bradley to shelve a project. You said you’d be worried that other people would pass off your fics as their own and you’d have no comeback if that was the case. I was suggesting that the problem of having an author forced to shelve a book you could otherwise have enjoyed reading was a more serious problem than having other fans plagiarise your fic, and asking whether you felt the same way. Whether the protection of future works from a favourite author, which means you get to read them when they come out, is worth risking the annoyance of plagiarism. Making fan fiction impossible to copyright would have pluses and minuses for all concerned, and I was wondering whether you thought the pluses outweighed the minuses.

    Reply
  50. Ah, thank you, now I get it.
    Well, I do think that the minuses outweigh the pluses. I certainly don’t want to be ripped off without credit. I’ve myself repeatedly taken up ideas from other fanfic writers and used them in my fic. But. I’ve always asked whether I could do so and I’ve given them the credit they deserve. So, if anyone asked me, “can I use this and that from your story XYZ when I credit you in my author’s notes?”, I would certainly not say no. But taking and using without giving credit so that at last *I* was told I should give credit to author soandso for using her ideas when it was the other way round? No, thank you.
    As for the MZB incident: She was not “forced” to pull the book. A fan threatend to sue her – or did indeed sue, I can’t remember at the moment – but said fan didn’t have a leg to stand on, as we all know you cannot copyright ideas and it was only her ideas that were similar to the ones MZB used in her new book. MZB didn’t plagiarise as in use the same wording in telling the tale. That MZB reacted the way she did was, imo, perhaps also a way of punishing such ungrateful fans as her intent to avoid a lawsuit.
    No pro-writer has to read the fanfic written for them – or, at least, they don’t have to admit it. As long as they steadfastly confirm they haven’t seen any fic they’re fine and in no danger of being sued by “fans”. Look at the lawsuit between JKR and this other American writer who used the word “muggle” and the names Harry and Lily Potter way before her. She lost her claim because JKR adamantly refused ever having seen her work (and because Rowling had more clout – as for the “inspiration” I’m not sure where that came from….)
    kete

    Reply
  51. ‘I’ve myself repeatedly taken up ideas from other fanfic writers and used them in my fic. But. I’ve always asked whether I could do so and I’ve given them the credit they deserve.’
    Isn’t this inconsistent with your position that you shouldn’t have to ask authors for permission before you fic their work? I know you give them credit, but unless I’m wrong, you take the line that you shouldn’t have to ask an author before you fic. Fans, like authors, have put their works out in public. What’s the difference?
    ‘That MZB reacted the way she did was, imo, perhaps also a way of punishing such ungrateful fans as her intent to avoid a lawsuit.’
    That sounds a bit unlikely to me. After all, for all I can gather, the majority of her fans were perfectly well behaved. Why on earth would she ‘punish’ them because of one crackpot – especially as it meant discarding months’ worth of work at what must have been no small inconvenience to herself? You seem to be ascribing pretty spiteful motives to someone you’ve never met.

    Reply
  52. “Isn’t this inconsistent with your position that you shouldn’t have to ask authors for permission before you fic their work? I know you give them credit, but unless I’m wrong, you take the line that you shouldn’t have to ask an author before you fic. Fans, like authors, have put their works out in public. What’s the difference?”
    The difference is that fandom is a community. And the members of this community are expected to treat each other with some consideration. Also, it’s a lot easier to write an eMail asking, “can I write something about your story?” to Jane Ficwriter than to JKR.
    Otoh, there are a lot of people who don’t ask and don’t give credit (happened to me as I said above) and get away with it and – unlike JKR – there’s nothing the writer in question can do about it.
    That’s why it’s thought important to be more considerate with one another than with people who have the legale means to sue everyone out of home and hearth.
    “That sounds a bit unlikely to me. After all, for all I can gather, the majority of her fans were perfectly well behaved. Why on earth would she ‘punish’ them because of one crackpot – especially as it meant discarding months’ worth of work at what must have been no small inconvenience to herself? You seem to be ascribing pretty spiteful motives to someone you’ve never met.”
    I didn’t think it was spiteful at all. I did assume that she thought publishing and risking a lawsuit – however unlikely to be lost – was more trouble than it was worth to her. And that she was – understandably – hurt and disappointed to be threatened by someone she had sofar supported and let in. AFAIK she kept a FF community on her website and read and advised fan writers.
    kete

    Reply
  53. ‘The difference is that fandom is a community. And the members of this community are expected to treat each other with some consideration.’
    That’s pretty poor reasoning. You’re a member of the human race as well as a fandom community, and writers are also members of the human race. You’re often a citizen of the same country, you’re almost always a member of the same language group, you and the writer will always be members of the loves-to-read community. Are you really saying you don’t owe writers any consideration because you don’t share the same exact hobby? Because if so, what you’re saying is that the only people you have to treat well are your cronies. Not a very moral standpoint.

    Reply
  54. Kete wrote:
    “The difference is that fandom is a community. And the members of this community are expected to treat each other with some consideration. Also, it’s a lot easier to write an eMail asking, “can I write something about your story?” to Jane Ficwriter than to JKR.
    Otoh, there are a lot of people who don’t ask and don’t give credit (happened to me as I said above) and get away with it and – unlike JKR – there’s nothing the writer in question can do about it.
    That’s why it’s thought important to be more considerate with one another than with people who have the legale means to sue everyone out of home and hearth.”
    Let me get this straight: you believe a fanfic writer should treat other fanfic writers with respect and courtesy, and that they should seek a fellow ficcer’s approval before using any of their work. But you think it’s okay to disrespect published authors because they are more difficult to reach and might have more money than you. I’m sorry, but that is some mighty twisted logic. On the other hand, it is one of the most honest and revealing statements yet about the hypocrisy and immaturity that is the foundation of the fanficcer mentality and philosophy… so I thank you for it.
    Lee

    Reply
  55. “Are you really saying you don’t owe writers any consideration because you don’t share the same exact hobby? Because if so, what you’re saying is that the only people you have to treat well are your cronies. Not a very moral standpoint.”
    Not a very ethical standpoint, either. But, as usual, Ey-up makes his points about fanfiction far more eloquently than I do.
    Lee

    Reply
  56. (Actually I’m a she. But thanks for the compliment, Lee.)
    What strikes me as common to the worse arguments in favour of fan fic – other people on this site have made better arguments which, while they don’t convince me, are at least rational and thoughtful – is that they’re variants of ‘fan fic benefits the fan fic community and its members’.
    It seems a bit odd that fans would expect that to be an argument that convinces non-fans. If you think fans are doing something wrong, the fact that it benefits them is neither here nor there. People almost always do things because it benefits them; that doesn’t prove it’s right as far as anyone else is concerned.

    Reply
  57. “Are you really saying you don’t owe writers any consideration because you don’t share the same exact hobby? Because if so, what you’re saying is that the only people you have to treat well are your cronies. Not a very moral standpoint.”
    We owe them the same consideration we owe each other: to credit them when we use their ideas. Which 99 percent of the fic writers do for the original authors – but not always for each other.
    Regarding asking for permission: Why should I write to JKR? She’s stated she’s okay with fanfic, even linked to FF-sites on her originl website.
    kete

    Reply
  58. “Let me get this straight: you believe a fanfic writer should treat other fanfic writers with respect and courtesy, and that they should seek a fellow ficcer’s approval before using any of their work.”
    See my above post. I do think they should give credit where credit is due – be it for pro writers or fellow fan writers. Seeking approval between fellow fan writers is something *I* did and consider the polite thing to do but would not see as exactly necessary so long as credit is given.
    “But you think it’s okay to disrespect published authors because they are more difficult to reach and might have more money than you.”
    Where did I say that? What do I do that disrespects published authors? I write fic and credit *all* my sources – be they pro or fan writers. I think that’s respecting them equally.
    kete

    Reply
  59. ‘Regarding asking for permission: Why should I write to JKR? She’s stated she’s okay with fanfic, even linked to FF-sites on her originl website.’
    True, but what your argument implied was that if you wanted to write fan fic about a different author whose position on fan fic was unclear or negative, you wouldn’t feel obligated to write – or more generally, to consider whether or not they were willing. True or false?
    I have to say, the argument that fan fic credits authors therefore it’s considerate is a bit weak. It’s not as if you could write a Harry Potter fic -without- crediting Rowling. The issue of consideration comes in when it comes to deciding whether you’re going to respect their wishes about what and whether you write – not posting erotica in easily-accessible forums in the case of JK Rowling, for example. Abiding by an author’s wishes is considerate, but crediting them is unavoidable. It’s hardly a triumph of consideration to bow to the inevitable.

    Reply
  60. “True, but what your argument implied was that if you wanted to write fan fic about a different author whose position on fan fic was unclear or negative, you wouldn’t feel obligated to write – or more generally, to consider whether or not they were willing. True or false?”
    I cannot honestly answer what I would do in a case I wanted to write in a fandom where the originator of the idea didn’t approve of it, because I happen to only want to write
    in fandoms where the source has given approval.
    But I do think the unwillingness of a source creator would seriously hamper all attempts at writing and sharing fic. For one there would be no archives. Secondly it turns fans off when the source speaks negatively about fan endeavours. Most fan writers would turn away, stopping not oly to write but also to read and/or watch.
    Regarding the posting of HP-erotica, I’m at a loss myself. I do not think the source material really offers itself for such a purpose, although I have read a few H/D slash fics where everyone was older, out of Hogwarts and after the great Voldie-war and liked them. But it seems to me that JKR’s C&D letter was only a token effort, as she surely has the means of going after material she disapproves of.
    kete

    Reply
  61. ‘But I do think the unwillingness of a source creator would seriously hamper all attempts at writing and sharing fic.’
    Well, yes. That would be the idea.
    ‘But it seems to me that JKR’s C&D letter was only a token effort, as she surely has the means of going after material she disapproves of.’
    On what do you base that, other than the desire to believe she didn’t really mean it? She does indeed have the means, but a cease-and-desist is a standard opening gambit. The fact that she hasn’t sued as a first resort means nothing except that she’s nice enough to begin by firing a warning shot. Time will tell what’s going to happen there, but I’d never take the fact that an author doesn’t act vindictively as a sign that they don’t take copyright violation seriously.
    That’s the second time in this discussion you’ve attributed motives to authors. You suggested Marion Zimmer Bradley withdrew her disputed book to punish fans – and then changed your story when I challenged you on that – and now you’re positing that JK Rowling isn’t serious about obscene fic. Considering that fan fiction is based on the assumption that the author’s intentions can be ignored, it seems strange that you keep making guesses about their intentions in the real world.

    Reply
  62. “Well, yes. That would be the idea.”
    So, why are you still making a noise here? You say, “don’t write fic if the authors discourages it! It’s immoral, unethical, criminal, whatnot.” Then I say that normally a discouraging author reaches their aim in that fans turn away. And you’re still not content?
    “On what do you base that, other than the desire to believe she didn’t really mean it? … Time will tell what’s going to happen there, but I’d never take the fact that an author doesn’t act vindictively as a sign that they don’t take copyright violation seriously.”
    I have no desire in whatsoever direction here as it doesn’t concern me personally. But, since it has been a comparatively long time now since the C&D letter without any further action I can only make an educated guess at JKR’s motives and it would be that she’s covered her bases by making a token protest and that was it.
    “That’s the second time in this discussion you’ve attributed motives to authors.”
    I am also forbidden to make assumptions now? What next? I’ll get a gagging order?
    “You suggested Marion Zimmer Bradley withdrew her disputed book to punish fans – and then changed your story when I challenged you on that – ”
    I did not at all change my story on that. I strongly object to your changing my words and their meaning around as you think will fit your argumentation. I think it a very strong possibility that MZB, hurt and disappointed by a fan she had formerly advised and supported, decided to withdraw her book from publication, even if she had very good prospects of winning the threatened law suit, to send a very clear message to her fans in general and this fan in particular. If you think differently, let’s hear it. But that’s the problem with you, isn’t it? Your only thought and argument, that you repeat over and over ad nauseam, is “fanfic is evil…blahdiblahblah – otherwise I haven’t heard any original thought or idea from you.
    “…and now you’re positing that JK Rowling isn’t serious about obscene fic.”
    As I said above, I’ve made an educated guess at her motives – which is all we can do until the lady declares herself.
    kete

    Reply
  63. ‘But that’s the problem with you, isn’t it? Your only thought and argument, that you repeat over and over ad nauseam, is “fanfic is evil…blahdiblahblah – otherwise I haven’t heard any original thought or idea from you.’
    Okay, it’s been stated by Lee, and I agree with him, that the discussions ought to be civil. You’re getting abusive, so I’m going to stop debating with you. If you’re prepared to be polite, I’m happy to converse, but not otherwise.

    Reply
  64. ‘But that’s the problem with you, isn’t it? Your only thought and argument, that you repeat over and over ad nauseam, is “fanfic is evil…blahdiblahblah – otherwise I haven’t heard any original thought or idea from you.’
    This statement was hardly “abusive”. Good way to get out of it though.

    Reply
  65. Once upon a time there was a fictional character who was much better at solving homicides than the police. Fans wrote stories featuring him. The character’s name was Sherlock Holmes. One of the first pastiches was written by Mark Twain.Once upon a time a girl in her early teens wrote a story in which a fictional version of herself became friends with a film actor. The girl’s name was Anne Frank. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. The more things change, the more they remain the same.Betty

    Reply
  66. This has certainly been informational. Fortunatly for Fanfiction writers such as myself. We cannot be sued legally, until we start either collecting (or affecting) profits. It would be hard however, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that so-n-so didn’t buy your sequel because he was busy reading all the fanfiction. Since fanfiction hosting site’s (the ones I know of) do not collect money, or charge subscription fee’s; which means they too are within the law.
    Fanfiction cannot be copyrighted. Nor should it be. Generally us fanfic writers know the difference between the orginal and what we write. Difference being characters and setting. Take a book like Harry Potter, which borrows heavily from Wizards Hall (Jane Yolen) Since J.K. changes the setting and characters, she can borrow idea’s from Jane Yolen all she wants and not be held accountable for her billions of profits. FanFic writers may change the setting, or they may change the characters, but never both. Otherwise, their writing orginal fiction. The reason I even write fanfiction is because it gives me the experience with writing as a proffession that I (being a curious teen) enjoy exploring. I have a hard time believing that my innocent exploration of a writing career is in danger. Personally, I’d like to know how others like my writing before I drop twenty+ grand a year on a Creative Writing course.

    Reply
  67. “On the other hand, it is one of the most honest and revealing statements yet about the hypocrisy and immaturity that is the foundation of the fanficcer mentality and philosophy… so I thank you for it.”
    Fan fiction is a very large community. Saying the fan ficton community is hypocritical is ridiculous. We are many people, and we do not agree on many things. That doesn’t make us hypocritical, it makes us a group of individuals.

    Reply

Leave a Comment