I saw that a fanfic forum had linked to some of my posts here… so I took my argument into their camp… and they aren’t happy about it
But you don’t you understand his PAAAAIIINNNN??? The big, mea, awful, horrible fanfic writers just come in and destroy everything he loves and works for, yea verily like Vikings descending upon a helpless crannog they swwop down and leave his pwecious pwecious creation in RUINS! Oh, will no one save the poor creators? May my fingers be broken if I ever start taking myself that seriously.
Another poster, with a unique take on copyright law, argues that by not profitting financially from their “fanfic,” it’s not copyright infringement (I’ll be sure to tell that to all those file-swappers facing prosecution and huge fines for sharing their music collections over the net…)
As long as you don’t SELL them, you’re free to use copyrighted characters since… gasp, they ARE public domain. Anything that it published is free game, so long as there is no profit gained on the part of the person using them. Ethical issues? Bullshit, slappy. Do you mind if I call you slappy? Too bad. Anyhow, what’s unethical about seeing something, decide that you like it enough to write something involving said something, and deciding that you like what you’ve written enough to show it to others? Is any money exchanged? Is anybody profiting from using your materials (hence breaking Copyright laws)? Is anyone blatantly reproducing someone else’s work (word for word) and distributing it?
Nope. Besides, haven’t you ever heard, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? Grow up, Slappy
It’s fascinating to me to see all the ways that “Fanfic” writers try to justify/rationalize what they do…
If fanfic is unethical or a breach of copyright whether or not the creator is okay with it, then scriptwriters and the authors of tie-in novels are in no better place just because they’ve got a contract.
What’s even more unbelievable is that they believe they are “self-policing,” that “fanfic” writers are the best ones to decide when their “fanfic” is inappropriate…
If you hate it so much, why are you even here? Take a look around you, all of us are fanfic writers and/or readers, and we have taken it upon ourselves to ‘police’ the net, naming and shaming the fics we feel step beyond common decency. If you want a whinge about fanfic find somewhere that cares. I’m sorry, but you’ve overstepped the line here. If you are anti-fanfic, fair enough, but don’t come here and slag us off.
Of course, I believe that ALL “fanfic” is inappropriate unless the writer has the consent of the author or copyright holder. You won’t see the “fanfic” writers policing those who cross that line, will you?
(UPDATE: The outrage over my comments has spread to another fanfic forum).
There’s a difference between people filesharing and people writing fanfics. File sharing actually does lead to a financial loss on the part of the owner of the property, because otherwise, one would have to purchase said property in order to view/listen to it.
Now, with fanfics, there is absolutely no financial loss to you, is there? They’re taking already written work, adding their own spin to it, and showing it to other people for fun, not profit.
Care to explain how this violates you FINANCIALLY? I see no way that you are losing money, or that money is being made off of you without your concent.
I got quoted! I got quoted! First quote’s by me, and next time I want some damn credit. Even we awful, horrible, “moral violators” give credit. Geez.
Consent is assumed unless stated otherwise, and if stated otherwise no archive will take fanfic based off that author’s work.
So, if you don’t like it – BLOODY WELL STATE OTHERWISE. And people will stop writing fic beased on your work. My god! What an amazing concept! Perhaps you’s like some cheese with your whine?
Oh, yes, and the second quote was by me. How about some credit? You’re violating my intellectual property! HOW DARE YOU! Oh my god, now I have to cry and go whine about it on my blog.
…
I sense a familliar scenario.
Wouldn’t it be more satisfying to create your own characters and scenarios, even if it weren’t a violation of someone else’s intellectual property…and rather creepy?
“Wouldn’t it be more satisfying to create your own characters and scenarios, even if it weren’t a violation of someone else’s intellectual property…and rather creepy?”
In the process of doing it (Once I figure out how to approach the whole damn epic and coax my muse back from Tahiti.) And it is satisfying… but so is writing fanfic. I can gush with equal fervor about Demon Hunter Fujikoe (manga I started with a friend), the Black Dragon Chronicles (working title of aforementioned epic), and Suicide Kings (Latest fanfic). I put equal amounts of time, love, and effort into each.
And it’s no more creepy then any other expression of fan love. Less creepy then some.
“No more creepy than any other expression of fan love.”
That kind of sums it all up, doesn’t it?
Since tempers were running high on GAFF, I wrote a rather lengthy post in the thread under discussion. I’d like to quote some passages:
“[…]Furthermore, as far as I know a lot of people who write licensed novels based on TV series (or episodes of TV series) have written fanfic, licensed or unlicensed, before or after that. For example the Star-Trek-Writers Kathleen Sky, Steven Goldin and David Gerrold, the author of “The Trouble with Tribbles”.
A lot of copyright owners turn a blind eye to fanfiction and other derivatives, or even encourage them. The Star Trek fandom is a good example of that, so are various Anime/Manga fandoms (where there’s not only fanfiction, but also doujinshi, fan-drawn manga, which, as far as I know, isn’t being prosecuted, even if they are sold).
Of course, if Mr. Goldberg is the copyright holder (fully or partially) of “Diagnosis: Murder”, it is his right to do something against fanfiction written in this fandom.[…]”
“[…]I do understand the legal issues, and I do understand that it’s the right of a copyright holder to ask that their material not be used in fan fiction. Sure, this doesn’t stop [some] fanfiction writers from doing it anyway, but then there’s always the possibility to sue. I, for one, wouldn’t write in such a fandom, and wouldn’t be a pain about it, either. If they don’t want it, fine by me. Furthermore, most of us know (and make clear) that the characters do not belong to us.[…]I would never claim someone else’s intellectual property as my own.
I am not writing fanfiction to piss authors off. I am not writing fanfiction to make money. I am not writing fanfiction because I aspire to be an author (although many of us do). I write it to pass my time, and to make me and other people happy, to use my creative energy. If you think it’s crap, again fine by me. But not everybody thinks like that.”
“[…]The difference between us and Mr. Goldberg is that he, as an authorized writer, creates canon. We, since we are unauthorized, use the canon to create something new, something fun yet ultimately inconsequential. If I don’t like a fanfic where a main character dies, I don’t read it, and it never happened. There is a fundamental difference, and yet I still think that both
things deserve to exist. If there hadn’t been fanfiction, there wouldn’t be authorized Star-Trek-Novels, for example (supposedly, the Blish-Anthologies and “Mission to Horatius” wouldn’t have been published, if it hadn’t been for Paramount seeing the potential in fiction about their series – back then in circulation in copied-together, typewriter-written fanzines).
Mr. Goldberg is entitled to his opinion, and I don’t think being rude is the way to go here (although he wasn’t too nice, himself). But I hope he understands that, in a way, he is not so different from us after all. He wrote that he enjoyed writing books about “Diagnosis Murder”. He is very lucky that he is actually authorized to do so. Those of us who aren’t
authorized enjoy writing stories (sometimes in the length of an average novel!) the same way. And, as already said, nobody claims the characters are theirs, nobody claims their story is of any consequence to canon. It’s harmless fun, which in some cases has astonishing potential. It is also a way for authors-to-be to work out issues with characterization and specific scenes, like love- or death scenes, before they move on to their own literary piece where they can apply what they learned.”
I hope I didn’t write anything that could be misunderstood in any way – English is not my first language, and I’d like to excuse myself in advance for possible blunders. Furthermore, I would like to say that I do not approve of mpreg at all, since it is ludicrous and biologically impossible. And if a copyright holder made it known that he or she does not approve of fanfiction about their works, and I have written a piece about it, I would take it down instantly and without a fuss. After all, those people created something I care about, so it is not in my interest to make them angry or go against their wishes.
I do not wish to upset anybody or say that their opinion is invalid. I just believe that coexistence between fanfiction and authorized fiction is possible.
And last but not least, I have a question (that is not meant to be sarcastic or anything, I am merely curious):
I think it was mentioned that some people think that fanfiction actually hurts the profits of the copyright holders. How so? It does not replace authorized fiction, and it does not keep people from buying the games, DVDs or whatever the fanfiction is about.
An addition to my previous comment: I wanted to state that I do not write DM fanfiction. My interest is mainly fantasy, and there mainly the Asian variety (“Twelve Kingdoms” from Japan, or “Saiyuki”, an anime based on a 15th Century Chinese book). Neither have I ever written or an interest in bizarre sexual practices, rape or other nasty varieties of fanfics. I mainly write adventure stories and introspectives into minor characters.
I posted a comment on your previous GAFF rant which I think is more applicable here:
http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2004/10/godawful_fan_fi.html#c2415612
Please do not start a personal vendetta against GAFFers. We do not deserve it, and in a way, we are on your side (we all agree with you about Mpreg, and I personally agree with you that the thought of slashing DM’s main characters is awful!).
So… anybody who alters original work in any way is a thief and unimaginative?
Ah, maybe fanfic is against copyright law. But parodies are not. And I can certainly say that some fanfics are so off the mark, so off canon, so completely unbelievable and impossible, that I find they could only be a parody. I enjoy DM, but do not have to like the writer. 😛
-Jake
Timemaster of the Year!
“You won’t see the “fanfic” writers policing those who cross that line, will you?”
Well, actually, occasionally, you do.
In the very early days of Star Wars, George Lucas is reputed to have seen some fanfic at a convention, and asked that people not write in his universe. Until fairly recently, they didn’t. As I’m not in SW fandom, I have no idea if his view changed or whether an influx of younger fans, not aware of his views, simply ingored him.
In general, my experience has been that if a writer makes their view known (politely) most fans will observe their request. Some won’t, but there are rude people in every group.
P M Rommel is correct. It takes a little effort to have fanfiction banned, or nearly banned. Anne Rice has done this, and all major fanfiction-sites have followed her request. Check fanfiction.net or mediaminer.org, there are no Interview with a Vampire-fics there.
However, I’d suggest you won’t just think that all fanfiction is mpreg or anything else. On GAFF, you’ve admitted to only read the definitely bad pieces of fiction. However, you can’t judge all fanfiction on the bad pieces.
I’ve only read one piece of DM fanfic, the NESTING story. For obvious legal reasons, I won’t read any others.
That said, I have read fan fiction, particular of shows I’ve worked on after they were canceled (like SEAQUEST, SHE-WOLF OF LONDON, etc). By and large, the fanfic I read was hideous swill.
I will concede I stumbled on some GUNSMOKE fanfic that was terrific…truly evocative of the show and the characters… and it made me sad the author was wasting his time and obvious talent writing it instead of original western stories or novels.
Wasting? Excuse me?
Just because a hobby doesn’t give you profit or makes you famous, it isn’t exactly a waste of time. One day, the author might become a professional, but until then this is a good practise – and also entertainment for the author and the story’s readers.
Yes, most fanfiction is bad, but this way, ambitious authors can improve and learn from their mistakes, with instant, critical audience, instead of doing it all alone.
“I will concede I stumbled on some GUNSMOKE fanfic that was terrific…truly evocative of the show and the characters… and it made me sad the author was wasting his time and obvious talent writing it instead of original western stories or novels.”
But see, it does’t feel like a waste of time to us. It is fun to express ourselves through the characters we love, and the only thing we ever want for it is feedback by our fellow fans – not only praise, but honest constructive criticism. And it also doesn’t mean that the author at the respective time wasn’t working on something original, and maybe wrote the fanfiction on the side.
Most of the people at GAFF are still young, some in their teens, I myself in my early twenties. Writing fanfiction now doesn’t mean for us that our aspirations end there. For many, they may just begin that way, until they actually manage to get their own authorized fiction, or even an original work published.
I am hoping that someday, I will be a translator for literary works. For that, as somebody in that profession said in an essay, one has to be well-versed in writing, as well, although one technically does not create. Many scenes have to be rewritten because the other language lacks cultural context, many times a given word has between two and 100 meanings it can be translated to.
I feel that in writing myself for fun (be it fanfiction or original works), I broaden my vocabulary, my way of expressing things, and I truly feel that what I learned by listening to constructive criticism and the person that betas (=edits) for me will be beneficial later-on.
“Just because a hobby doesn’t give you profit or makes you famous, it isn’t exactly a waste of time.”
Precisely. Otherwise there would be no point in amateur dramatics, fishing, amateur football (of any flavour), embroidery or any other form of decorative sewing. Or, in fact, any of thousands of activities people do for fun.
Sir, I’d like to point you out to Anne McCaffrey (author of the Dragon Riders of Pern series, among others) official website, http://www.annemccaffrey.org . On her forums – which can be found at forum.annemccaffrey.org – she has a specific board set aside for fanfiction writers. In this way, her fans can write stories in her worlds to their hearts’ content, without spreading it all over the internet, and in a manner that she (or, rather, her representitives) can police offensive fiction.
Anne McCaffrey has one of the most sensible policies towards fanfiction for those authors who are uncomfortable with their worlds and characters being used by amateur writers; she allows it, but only in one place, where her representitives can keep a close watch.
This is an alternative which you gave short shrift to in your wholesale attacks against fanfiction in general – some of which was on the mark, but some of which was unfair.
Sir, I am currently 40,000 words and going in entirely ORIGINAL fiction – all sprung from my own head, unlike the novelizations of Diagnosis: Murder – although I also write some minor Harry Potter fanfiction on the side. I use the fanfiction as an outlet for my creative juices, and to practice narration, dialogue, exposition, and tone in a more informal forum than the slush pile editor’s desk. It is a useful way for a young amateur writer to improve in the craft, and it causes harm to no one; J.K. Rowling has expressed no qualms over the use of the Harry Potter books for fan enjoyment, and seems delighted with the amount of fan appreciation. While I can understand your own hesitency in allowing the floodgates to open fully into the world of D:M fiction, please do not paint all authors – fanfiction or otherwise – alike.
//Yes, most fanfiction is bad, but this way, ambitious authors can improve and learn from their mistakes, with instant, critical audience, instead of doing it all alone.//
//the only thing we ever want for it is feedback by our fellow fans – not only praise, but honest constructive criticism. //
Two different people made roughly the same comment. They write fanfic for the practice and the feedback. You can get better practice, and the same feedback, by writing an original story and posting on the net. In fact, it would be far more useful practice and far more practical criticism.
If you are truly an “ambitious” author, you don’t gain anything from poaching on someone else’s creativity.
And once again, you forget that we also do this for fun. As I’ve stated before, fanfiction-writing is a hobby, not something to make a profit off. Yes, there are those who aspire to be writers, but there also those that use fanfiction for fun, as a hobby.
And, once again, it isn’t stealing. Every fanfiction-author gives credit to the creators in this little thing called ‘disclaimer’.
Besides, some people don’t want to write ‘original fiction’. Some want to write about their fandoms, to fill in the blanks, as it were.
//And, once again, it isn’t stealing. Every fanfiction-author gives credit to the creators in this little thing called ‘disclaimer’. //
That disclaimer is meaningless and absolves the writer of nothing.
My problem isn’t with someone who wants to fantasize about Dr. Who showing up on Babylon-5 and having sex with the Lizard-head guy. Where it crosses the line is when the story is published and distributed, whether or not its for profit.
You can get better practice, and the same feedback, by writing an original story and posting on the net. In fact, it would be far more useful practice and far more practical criticism.
Now this really could be a waste of creativity. Yes, I agree that the criticism would be more helpful, but at the same time a lot of publishers specify when submitting that work must not have been published before. And yes, they include publishing on the internet. I don’t know how seriously that aspect is taken, but I do know that publishing an original story online could wreck any chance of ever having that story, or any form of it, published for real.
Yes, I realize I’m a bit late for the splooge-party. So sue me along with the fanfic authors. Who cares.
Fanfiction is a great way to practice writing for original stories. It is fun, creative, and comes with its own built-in review panel: the fans. Since the audience is already familiar with the characters/setting/plot-lines, they can better criticize the work for holes, inconsistencies, and bad characterizations and such.
With fanfiction, you get practice in sticking to a character design and setting even if certain bits are difficult. And since the basic time consumers are already taken care of, you can better focus on writing style, grammar and mechanics, plot flow, conflict, and other elements of writing which might be neglected due to the stress and time consumption of cranking out original characters.
Hell, this exercise has even been used at schools when students are required to write a final chappie or some such. You want to sue the chilluns too?
Most good fanfic writers “graduate” from fanfic to original creations of their own. And frankly, I don’t think some of them would be near as good if they didn’t have the great training and criticism found in the fanfic world.
//My problem isn’t with someone who wants to fantasize about Dr. Who showing up on Babylon-5 and having sex with the Lizard-head guy. Where it crosses the line is when the story is published and distributed, whether or not its for profit. //
And exactly why does it cross a line there?
Let’s get the necessaries out of the way…yes, I do think that a good 85 to 90 percent of fanfic out there is crap. The rest varies from the mediocre to the excellent; the job of the reader is to find the good stuff among the dross.
Considering that the series in question is Diagnosis: Murder, my mind boggles. I’m not surprised about fanfic being written for this fandom — name a series and there’s fic somewhere on the net for it. What surprises me, Mr. Goldberg, is your whining and moaning about copyright infringement, etc., for a series that more often than not played wink-wink/nod-nod with its audience. Half the fun of D:M were the giant fannish-inspired crossovers that were written: Mark Sloan meets Mannix; Mark Sloan meets the cast of M*A*S*H; Mark Sloan meets the cast of the 1960s spy genres; Mark Sloan and Amanda Bentley meet TV soap stars (one who looks remarkably like Dr. Bentley); Mark Sloan takes on the head honchos of all three TV networks (Lifeguards from UNCLE, Hawaii Six-0) — God if you knew the industry insiders, you caught all the in-jokes and knew exactly which executives were being skewered; it remains, for me, one of the funniest eps of the series.
I have several questions for you:
1. Are you more offended by fanfic for D:M than you are for SeaQuest? (At one time, SeaQuest did have a very active fandom, far more I think than D:M will ever reach.)
2. If you’re not offended by the latter as much as the former, why? Is it because as a TV tie-in novelisation writer, you’re discovering that what you’ve written is not what the majority of your readers are looking for, and therefore revenues are falling?
3. Do you believe that “fans” (generic term in this case for weekly viewers of a show as recorded by A.E. Nielsen) should remain passive consumers of the show as product? And if you don’t believe that consumers have the right to be active regarding something that’s coming into their house weekly and providing quiet sales pitches for P&G, Lever Bros., Johnson & Johnson, etc., and keeping you in business, why?
4. When the likelihood of series from the Warner Bros. black & white catalog of the 1950s-early 1960s hits ever reaching DVD is slim to none; as the residuals for these series have all been paid (thanks to Ronald Regean’s skillful negotiating of these payments when president of the SAG), and the interest in these series among the general public remains marginal at best, do you have a problem with fanfic being written about them (if only as a means of keeping interest in these series alive)?
5. Why do you assume that everyone who writes fanfic isn’t creating their own original stories as well and/or is not published, and therefore not a real author?
6. I’m curious, as you seem to believe you’re speaking for the industry, I’d love to know what NATAS, DGA, WG-W/E, SAG, AFTRA think about the phenomenon of fanfic, or have they not posted position papers about it?
Pepper
Lots of questions for Lee in that last post, but I think I’ll tackle one of them:
“5. Why do you assume that everyone who writes fanfic isn’t creating their own original stories as well and/or is not published, and therefore not a real author?”
While I lack my partner’s obsessive dislike of fanfic, I will share his assumption that everyone who writes fanfic is not published… unless you’re talking about the insanely rare fanficcer who just sold that first or second story.
Because for professional writers, writing is no longer a hobby, no longer the thing we do to unwind from a long day at work. We are now in a position where we can make a living from our writing, it becomes our job. And if we have a choice of writing something that is not only uniquely ours, but will also pay the mortgage, or spending the same amount of time hacking out some trivia for a couple of fans to bitch about on the internet, well, who would ever choose option B? And if we have a really great idea for a story, why would we waste it on a faux-Xena — or whatever — instead of finding a way to craft it into something of actual value?
As has been said several times here, fanfic is a hobby. Many people think it’s a harmless hobby, and I can’t bring myself to disagree. (Sorry, Lee…) It’s certainly more positive than, say, chucking rocks through store windows. But NFL players don’t relax with a game of flag football, and writers don’t kick back by writing fanfic.
//Half the fun of D:M were the giant fannish-inspired crossovers that were written: Mark Sloan meets Mannix; Mark Sloan meets the cast of M*A*S*H; Mark Sloan meets the cast of the 1960s spy genres//
I have to agree with you — they were great fun!
Only in the case of “Mannix” “Matlock” and “Mission Impossible” did we use actual characters from another series, and in all three cases had the consent of the copyright holders. We couldn’t, and wouldn’t, have done it otherwise.
As for the “Happy Days” actors, they weren’t playing characters even remotely like their ones that made them celebrities. For “Star Trek”/”sci-fi” episode, we hired actors who were in SF shows, but again, they weren’t playing anything close to the characters for which they are known.
Bill Rabkin wrote on 10/16/04 @ 9:22 a.m.:
While I lack my partner’s obsessive dislike of fanfic, I will share his assumption that everyone who writes fanfic is not published… unless you’re talking about the insanely rare fanficcer who just sold that first or second story.
Because for professional writers, writing is no longer a hobby, no longer the thing we do to unwind from a long day at work. We are now in a position where we can make a living from our writing, it becomes our job.
Mr. Rabkin, I regret that you make this assumption. I’ve been writing professionally since college: I’ve been a ghostwriter for two US Library of Congress/UNESCO books; I’ve written ad copy for major marketing campaigns; I’ve written PR copy for ANRs, VNRs, SMTs and RMTs; I’ve ghostwritten and written under my own name numerous magazine articles; and I’ve vetted plays for NY-NATAS. The written word is my professional life — it pays the bills.
I’m also _gasp_ a dreaded fanfic writer. (Why do I feel like I’m standing up at an AA meeting at Fifth Avenue Presby, right about now?)
To answer your immediate questions: No, I don’t write slash or mpreg (it’s not my cup of tea); I write mostly for series that barely have a fanbase, and most of those have been off-network from anywhere between fifteen to forty years (What can I say? I think the writing on most of the older shows was of a higher caliber than the dreck being paraded as “Must See TV” today); most of the fanfic I’ve written is not online (out of choice).
I do find Mr. Goldberg’s comments somewhat amusing in terms of “these being his characters” (using D:M for the moment, as an example), because from what I can see on IMDB, he was not the creator of the series. So, please don’t continue rambling about how would you feel having characters you’ve created do and say things that they wouldn’t…I doubt very much that the first draft of your script is the same as the finished filmed product. Television is such a collaborative effort that your glorious plot has probably gone through at least ten re-writes: sponsors, network censors, break placement, actors’ changing dialogue, guest star changes, continuity edit, etc. before I, as the viewer, get to see it. And do tell me again how you’d tell DVD or Fred Silverman to put a sock in it if they thought another re-write was necessary.
As has been stated often enough in this debate, once you’ve released the final product to your audience, you have no control over what we do with it. I started writing “stories”, as I called them, when I was in elementary school. It wasn’t until coming online that I discovered I wasn’t the only person out there with this hobby. Fandom and fic writing didn’t begin with Star Trek. Since the beginning of the 20th Century, readers have been writing pastiches and homages on the works of Conan Doyle, Lovecraft and Burroughs, among others. The ‘net has just brought it into easy reach of everyone.
Despite what you may think, the writing of fanfic is a great compliment to the creators of a series, film or novel. You touched the audience enough with your characters and with your story to make us want more. (How many series axed after a two- or four-week run, would kill for that kind of resonance with an audience?) For off-network series, where there is no longer any chance of even a re-union movie, that says a lot about the original creative talent: this series may have been before my time, but I love it enough to wish it was still on.
Lee Goldberg wrote on 10/16/04 @ 10:29 a.m.:
Only in the case of “Mannix” “Matlock” and “Mission Impossible” did we use actual characters from another series, and in all three cases had the consent of the copyright holders. We couldn’t, and wouldn’t, have done it otherwise.
Oh for the love of Pete…no sh*t, Sherlock. With D:M and Matlock being Lorimar/MGM, Mannix probably being QM/Desilu/Viacom (though I could be wrong) and MI being Paramount/Viacom, you’d damn well have better have gotten permission — especially since you were making ad revenue off of the show. Though I am curious, did you go to the current rights holder as well as the series creator (if living) or just the current rights holder? ‘Cause if you just did the latter, that puts a big hole in your argument about the “creator’s rights” on what is done with his characters.
BTW, I’d love to hear your answers for questions 1-6 of my previous post, which you deftly managed to sidestep.
Pepper
Hey, Pepper,
I can’t/won’t argue this whole morality issue, because it simply doesn’t concern me the way it seems to bug Lee.
But I wonder why someone like you, who clearly knows how to put a sentence together, and who spends her (I’m assuming from the name — sorry if I’m wrong) professional life on technical/PR writing, wastes her creative energies on fanfic. If there are series you love that aren’t being done anymore, why not try to distill what you love about those shows into something new and unique, something that expresses your love for the genre, but which you can share with the entire world — and conceivably make a lot of money off?
I’ve got no problem with a 12 year-old writing fanfic. I think a lot of kids start that way. But as we grow up, I think many of us yearn to leave our own mark on the world, and not just say “me, too” to someone else’s.
I’ve done some of the kinds of work you describe, and at the end of the day, the last thing I wanted was to keep on writing someone else’s property. I wanted the thing that was all mine.
Don’t you?
//But I wonder why someone like you, who clearly knows how to put a sentence together, and who spends her (I’m assuming from the name — sorry if I’m wrong) professional life on technical/PR writing, wastes her creative energies on fanfic.//
There it is again: ‘waste’. Can’t you people accept that it’s sometimes more fun, or stress-relieving, to add something to an existing tale, to broaden your view of that work and share it with others, then to create a new story?
But I wonder why someone like you, who clearly knows how to put a sentence together, and who spends her (I’m assuming from the name — sorry if I’m wrong) professional life on technical/PR writing, wastes her creative energies on fanfic.
Yes, she. Actually, I’m on the creative side of the coin right now. I work in the industry and have been requested by the creative head to evaluate a dialogue writing workshop being given tomorrow in Manhattan. As a matter of fact, on Thursday I was asked if I wanted to move over to write for our shows, and have already turned it down. My tastes and our viewers don’t mesh; so, it would be a bad match all around.
If there are series you love that aren’t being done anymore, why not try to distill what you love about those shows into something new and unique, something that expresses your love for the genre, but which you can share with the entire world — and conceivably make a lot of money off?
I’ve done my pitching of pilots, hawking of screenplays, and basically prostituting myself in the industry for a writing job on daytime television. Been there, done that. Bought the tee shirt and Burger King cup, too.
I love well-crafted dialogue, an intriguing plot and interesting characters, especially playing with the psychology behind their actions. That’s not what sells in the industry right now. I may be of the MTV/VH-1 generation, but I tend to have more in common with a generation or two before that, which definitely puts my writing style in the wrong demographic.
So, for the moment, I keep my creative juices flowing by playing in someone else’s universe, and as I’m big on continuity (or as we in fandom call it “canon”), I try to make my story as true to the spirit of the original as possible.
Who knows, maybe someday, I’ll pitch one of my fics to Dell as a TV tie-in…we know there’s money to be made in those.
Pepper
Hey, you may want to make another edit. Following the ‘outrage over [your] comments’ at GAFF and The RPG Duelling League, you’ve managed to catch the attention of the PPC, too. Oh, sorry, that’s the Protectors of the Plot Continuum to you. We’re another one of those groups who wander around trying to stop the original characters/locations etc being too badly wrecked by bad ‘fics. — oh, sorry, wait, we’re another one of those evil lazy plagiarizing groups who waste our time doing something we love to protect these evil immoral illegal abominations called fanfics from becoming too badly written. I’m sure you can find out more about us if you look around a bit. Oh, but don’t get too proud about this — we’ve only got one thread devoted to you.
And while I’m here, a point. Mr. Goldberg states: They write fanfic for the practice and the feedback. You can get better practice, and the same feedback, by writing an original story and posting on the net.
I personally find it’s easier to find something I’ll read and give feedback to by looking at the Lord of the Rings section of fanfiction.net, where I know that a good story will not have, say, flying unicorns, that by looking in the Fantasy section of Fictionpress.com, where you have to trudge through /thousands/ of stories (33,273 at the time of this comment) to find one you like, and the only way they can communicate anything to you about the world they’ve created is through a two-line summary. Let’s see some samples:
A story about Dhattar falling in love.
Hilary, Dai-chi, and the BladeBreakers are at the beach. Except this beach is right beside a battle field!
A girl was a victim of a speeding car, and has been converted into the angel Death. She takes a chance and saves a girl, becoming alive in the process. She and the girl are transported into a world of the past, and must change things int he pat to ensure
An honest thief and a prince set out to save a kingdom, a story i’ve been writing for a while, please R&R!
So, which of those would you like to read? And which is most likely to feature a forest? Compare them to these, from Fanfiction.net:
A series of stories exploring Thranduil and Legolas’ lives through the Third Age until they go West. Part Two: Thranduil’s decision to move his people to the stronghold becomes a test of loyalty. (Chapter 6 of 9)
Legolas hunts the trail of Lady Celebrian into the Misty Mountains.
What happens when a homely librarian, who happens to be a lover of fantasy– discovers that maybe Tolkien’s tales are not just tales; that Aragorn and Frodo and Gollum might have, in fact, walked upon this very earth?
AU. The Eagles carry the Ring to Orodruin, but Saruman is still at large. Can the King overcome the odds and still return?
Now, with the former, you can tell practically nothing. With the latter, you can think ‘Oh, it’s got Aragorn or Legolas or whoever in it – it might be good’. Thus it is actually easier to get constructive criticism for things like plot, characterisation (sticking to the original personalities can be hard, far harder than making up your own character who can change however you like), spelling-punctuation-grammar, and a host of other things by writing fanfic.
Hope that makes some sort of sense to you.
I love the idea of the self-appointed Protector of the Plot Continuum. What happens if someone messes around with the official timeline?
It all sounds like something out of Borges — or one of those Jasper Fforde Thursday Next books — now there’s a writer who can the impulse behind fanfic and turn it into literature!
Mr. Rabkin:
http://www.misssandman.com/PPC/story.html
“We love fanfic. Honestly, we do. But changing the *main plotline* of the canon story is ridiculous. (Except in speculative AU “what-if” type stories.) And Mary Sues upstage the canonical main characters, which really should not happen. If you want to be the main character, try doing original fiction. Then you can even publish it without breaking copyright laws, maybe even get rich. But if you do that, please knock your character down a few notches from “angel”. ”
(BTW: ‘Mary Sue’ is a perfect characater that many fan-fic and orginial authors are oft to write. They’re perfect looking, amazing fighters, have the hunky character fall in love with them… They suck. Really.)
And, on the fan-fic issue. Don’t like it, don’t read it. That’s all you’ve really got to say.
Someone here, or in a comment on one of the other fanfic posts, asked me about my experience with fanfic while I was a writer/producer on SEAQUEST.
Here’s the link to an earlier posting on my blog about that experience…
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/614026
Or you can read the novel I wrote, BEYOND THE BEYOND, that was inspired by my SEAQUEST encounter with some crazy fanfic writers…
//I love the idea of the self-appointed Protector of the Plot Continuum. What happens if someone messes around with the official timeline?//
What happens is that we tell them. We then offer suggestions on how they can correct it. If they insist upon slandering us (which most ‘Nazgirls’ do [A Nazgirl is one of the terms for the screaming, fangirls who have no respect for the story, the author or they plot. They frequently claim that they are better than a person named JR Toilken and that they should own the story ‘Bcuz I roc’. This is in the LotR fandom. Other fandoms tend to have their own terms.]) we blow off some steam and give some other people a good laugh by doing a PPC fic. This basically means that we go into the story, remove the Mary-Sue or whatever is ruining the story and set it back on the tracks of the Canon train.
Another way to do this is to ‘MST’ a fic. MST comes from the show ‘Mystery Science Theatre 3000’, if you know the show, you know what MSTing is all about, if not, go to http://www.alswaiter.com/LOTR. That will explain rather nicely.
I suggest that you do some MSTing, Mr. Goldberg, I think you might enjoy it and it will help you blow off some steam at the people who write awful things about your characters.
This discussion is getting weirder by the minute! I love it. 🙂
I keep telling myself it can’t go on any longer, but damned if it doesn’t.
Strange how it is only the lesser artists in the realms of writing and music who even seem to care that their “intellectual property” is being “stolen” and their rights “infringed upon.”
Hm. Something to consider. If the majority from Clamp to Rowling don’t seem to mind, why is it that you care so very, very deeply on the subject?
I don’t think you, Mr. Lee Goldberg–whom I first heard about only through rather removed means of irked fans–have enough of a fanbase to really earn the right to complain on the subject of fanworks.
Besides, you wouldn’t want to disgruntle all five of your fans, would you?
Or you can read the novel I wrote, BEYOND THE BEYOND, that was inspired by my SEAQUEST encounter with some crazy fanfic writers…
I read your excerpt through the link provided. It reads like a bad parody of one of the late Steve Allen’s murder mystery novels.
Pepper
Pepper,
//Though I am curious, did you go to the current rights holder as well as the series creator (if living) or just the current rights holder? ‘Cause if you just did the latter, that puts a big hole in your argument about the “creator’s rights” on what is done with his characters.//
Interesting question!
As a matter of fact, I did. The creators of “Mannix,” Ivan Goff & Ben Roberts, are dead. However, we worked closely with Mike Connors, who played Mannix, on the script to make sure it was true to the character he played for so many, many years. In the case of “Matlock,” the creator of that show, Dean Hargrove, was very much involved in the development of that episode.
In answer to your other questions:
//1. Are you more offended by fanfic for D:M than you are for SeaQuest? (At one time, SeaQuest did have a very active fandom, far more I think than D:M will ever reach.)/
I wrote a book about the experience — BEYOND THE BEYOND. But I also talk in detail about SEAQUEST fanfic in an earlier posting on this blog. I think the link is in a message above… otherwise, go to categories, click “Fanfic,” and go to my very first posting on the subject.
//2. If you’re not offended by the latter as much as the former, why? Is it because as a TV tie-in novelisation writer, you’re discovering that what you’ve written is not what the majority of your readers are looking for, and therefore revenues are falling?//
I think I’ve stated, very clearly, what bothers me about fanfic many times already. As for the second part of your question, the books are doing very, very well, thank you. I have just signed a contract to do four more, bringing the total to eight through 2006.
//3. Do you believe that “fans” (generic term in this case for weekly viewers of a show as recorded by A.E. Nielsen) should remain passive consumers of the show as product?//
Yes, as far as appropriating characters, stories, logos, etc from the show. Should they voice their feelings about what they like and don’t like about the show to the writers & producers? Absolutely!
//4. When the likelihood of series from the Warner Bros. black & white catalog of the 1950s-early 1960s hits ever reaching DVD is slim to none; as the residuals for these series have all been paid (thanks to Ronald Regean’s skillful negotiating of these payments when president of the SAG), and the interest in these series among the general public remains marginal at best, do you have a problem with fanfic being written about them (if only as a means of keeping interest in these series alive)?//
Yes. They aren’t your shows. They aren’t your characters. You don’t have the consent of the authors/copyright holders.
//5. Why do you assume that everyone who writes fanfic isn’t creating their own original stories as well and/or is not published, and therefore not a real author?//
I think I’ve answered that fifteen or twenty times by now…
//6. I’m curious, as you seem to believe you’re speaking for the industry, I’d love to know what NATAS, DGA, WG-W/E, SAG, AFTRA think about the phenomenon of fanfic, or have they not posted position papers about it?//
I never said I was speaking for the industry, I am speaking for myself. That said, I am sure the WGA, which seeks to protect the intellectual property of its members, would be against fanfic. I don’t know whether they have ever made a public comment on it one way or another. However, they have sought to gain the copyright to TV shows and movies for the screenwriter, which I think demonstrates how strongly the members feel about their creative investment in their work.
It is technically wrong in the sense that jaywalking when you have a clear view and there are absolutely no cars anywhere around is wrong. That said, it’s hardly indefensible. No one gets hurt. It is using another’s work without permission, but it isn’t robbing them of anything of value. In some fandoms, it even helps keep the fandom alive by keeping people interested while waiting for the next legitimate work to be released. This is mainly true of cult shows like BtVS which benefited from active and fanatical Internet fandoms.
It is good practice for writing. Publishing original work on the Internet will not result in the same sort of feedback. There is not much of an audience for self published work, but there are hordes out there eagerly awaiting every bit of fanfic they can get their hands on (in some fandoms, anyway). Post a Harry Potter story and many will read it. Post an original story as an unknown and you will be lucky if you can bribe anyone beyond your close friends and family to read it.
And as someone else said, you can post an HP work that you’ve enjoyed writing and others will enjoy reading without worrying that you are robbing yourself of a chance to get it published later since you couldn’t anyway.
However, the main reason behind fanfic isn’t to improve one’s writing or any high reason like that. Fanfic exists simply because it is fun to take characters you love out and play with them for a bit.
//4. When the likelihood of series from the Warner Bros. black & white catalog of the 1950s-early 1960s hits ever reaching DVD is slim to none; as the residuals for these series have all been paid (thanks to Ronald Regean’s skillful negotiating of these payments when president of the SAG), and the interest in these series among the general public remains marginal at best, do you have a problem with fanfic being written about them (if only as a means of keeping interest in these series alive)?//
Yes. They aren’t your shows. They aren’t your characters. You don’t have the consent of the authors/copyright holders.
So, if I’m understanding this position, you’d rather these series — which means the talents of the actors, writers, producers, directors that preceded you (most probably dead at this stage in the game, anyway) — remain largely unremembered or otherwise forgotten? Better that, then having even a slightly interested “fan” community.
//3. Do you believe that “fans” (generic term in this case for weekly viewers of a show as recorded by A.E. Nielsen) should remain passive consumers of the show as product?//
Yes, as far as appropriating characters, stories, logos, etc from the show. Should they voice their feelings about what they like and don’t like about the show to the writers & producers? Absolutely!
Unlike a novel or a film, the job of a television show isn’t necessarily to entertain; if it does, so much the better. Your job is to sell me, the consumer, a product. You want me to be active in supporting your advertisers and keeping you on the air to continue selling merchandise, but nothing else. Sorry, this consumer doesn’t “buy it”.
//6. I’m curious, as you seem to believe you’re speaking for the industry, I’d love to know what NATAS, DGA, WG-W/E, SAG, AFTRA think about the phenomenon of fanfic, or have they not posted position papers about it?//
I never said I was speaking for the industry, I am speaking for myself.
Funny, considering how you’ve spoken in generalizations about how everyone else in the industry doesn’t approve of fanfic, which we know is not the case, I thought you were.
Pepper
Since I was little, I’ve enjoyed television. I’d watch my favorite programs, and once the episode was over, I’d go create my own adventures based on what I’d seen. My imagination has taken me to the far corners of the universe with Dr. Who, and I’ve traveled through time back to the wild west of the Cartwrights and the Barkleys. I’ve defeated the bad guys with John Drake and given Artemus Gordon a run for his money in the disguise department.
By now, it is obvious that I am not a passive consumer of television programming. My imagination has served me too well and given me too much pleasure to betray it in that way.
Blindly accepting the official version of anything as the “only truth (be it the latest news report from Iraq or the newest episode of ER) is a surefire recipe for disaster. I refuse to park my brains and my imagination outside the door for anyone.
If you ever decide to quit writing, I predict a great future for you in government. You’ll fit in perfectly with those agencies that would like nothing better than to turn us into passive robots with no will of our own.
Bill Rabkin wrote: I’ve done some of the kinds of work you describe, and at the end of the day, the last thing I wanted was to keep on writing someone else’s property. I wanted the thing that was all mine.
Don’t you?
Er…no. I’ve said this before: I write all day. I don’t write what you would probably accept as writing, and it doesn’t say ‘writer’ on my CV, but I spend all my working day, every day, assembling logical arguments, trying to explain complicated things simply, and putting words together into coherent sentences. In case you were wondering: while I’m not a lawyer, I examine a particular area of the law (not copyright, patent or trademark) and study changes and prospective changes in that and other matters which certain kinds of organisations will need to be aware of and take into account for future planning. I am not prepared to be any more precise than that, but if you look up the word ‘actuary’ you’ll get the general idea.
That kind of writing would never be ‘published’ as you would understand it except in the most ephemeral form as discussion documents for meetings or in academic collections which will rarely be made available to the public. Having done that all day, I don’t want to create anything in the field in which I’m an expert.
By the end of the working day, I’m all out of opinions and I want to play. As (and it may well be difficult for a TV writer and producer to imagine this) I don’t own a TV and have no intention of purchasing one again, ever, how I play is by writing fiction. Some of the fiction I write is fan fiction, and I make no apology for that.
As you said, “for professional writers, writing is no longer a hobby, no longer the thing we do to unwind from a long day at work. We are now in a position where we can make a living from our writing, it becomes our job.”
I can understand this. I don’t do my job for fun; it’s interesting but, when it comes down to it, I do it because they pay me. But to say that the only worthwhile writing is that for which you’re paid (which you haven’t, but Lee has implied) is like trying to claim that the several of my colleagues whose hobby is gardening are wasting their time and they should all aim to earn their crust by gardening.
Worse, it’s akin to saying that they should give up the hobby that gives them pleasure and harms no-one, never touch their garden again, pay someone else to do it, and be satisfied with the job that they do.
“for professional writers, writing is no longer a hobby, no longer the thing we do to unwind from a long day at work. We are now in a position where we can make a living from our writing, it becomes our job.”
I have only one thing to say to this:
“Writing is the most fun you can have by yourself”
~Terry Pratchett
Quoted from memory. In case you were wondering, he’s written over fifty books. Real books that he gets paid for.
//Yes, as far as appropriating characters, stories, logos, etc from the show. Should they voice their feelings about what they like and don’t like about the show to the writers & producers? Absolutely!//
So, you’re opposed to anything that involves anybody elses original characters, logos, pictures, etc.? That means you are opposed to essays, reviews, fansites, summaries, discussions in real life and imagination itself.
Wow. That’s a whole lot to be against.[/sarcasm]
Ah, here we go. I didn’t realise he’d said it twice:
What do you do with whatever spare time you have? How does Terry Pratchett relax when he’s off duty?
That’s the wrong sort of question. I enjoy writing. As I said, starting new books is a relaxation from finishing old ones. As for spare time, I think I’ve heard of the concept.
~Terry Pratchett, The New Discworld Companion
//Blindly accepting the official version of anything as the “only truth (be it the latest news report from Iraq or the newest episode of ER) is a surefire recipe for disaster. I refuse to park my brains and my imagination outside the door for anyone.//
What I do find fascinating about this conversation is the incredibly different mindsets revealed (on both sides, I’m sure). And maybe this is the one thing that will forever separate the fanfic writer from the non — to me, the newest episode of ER can never be “the only truth”… because it’s FICTION. It isn’t a real world subject to interpretation by those around it. It’s a fictional creation designed to tell a particular story or set of stories.
When I saw a terrible thriller called “Don’t Say a Word,” I didn’t set out to rewrite that movie so that it would go the way I wanted it to. Instead, it made me think long and hard about what I valued in a thriller and what was missing in the ones being made today — and I sat down a wrote an original script that attempted to encompass my storytelling values. And that script was optioned by the guys who made Terminator 3 — something that would have been impossible if I’d done a fanfic.
But I think it really comes down to how you view a work of narrative art. If it is indeed a picture of “truth” to you, then no wonder you want your chance to interpret it. But if you see it, as I do, as a self-contained work of art, then you have no desire to impose your own vision on it.
They write fanfic for the practice and the feedback. You can get better practice, and the same feedback, by writing an original story and posting on the net.
Bullshit, you can. No-one critiques original stories like they do fanfic. I get 3 times the reviews for fanfic than I do original stories and the critique was much more useful than the “this is great! Keep going!” I usually get. Sad as it is, the fanfic reviewers are much more picky about grammar and prose than the original story reviewers. And then, if you put it online, you have the risk, if your original story or poem is good enough, that someone else will steal it, take credit for it, and reap in the financial benefits. Which is, of course, something they can’t really do with fanfic, whetehr fanfic’s legal or not.
And what makes you think that fanfic writers don’t use fanfic as practice for their original writing? I myself have used many plot twists and characters I invented in fanfics in original stories. All it takes is a few tweaks and some rewriting and hey presto, I’ve got some material for one of my many originals.
Either research what you’re talking about by talking to decent fanfic writers (the ones who have written stories evocative of the original series and NOT the ones that crap out utter garbage, like mpreg) or just can it. Some of those great Gunsmoke fanfic-writers are using what they’ve learned and ARE writing their own original westerns.
//And what makes you think that fanfic writers don’t use fanfic as practice for their original writing? I myself have used many plot twists and characters I invented in fanfics in original stories. All it takes is a few tweaks and some rewriting and hey presto, I’ve got some material for one of my many originals.//
Hey, I think that’s great…as long as the fanfic stays in your drawer. My problem is when you publish or post it on the net… then you are crossing an ethical and legal line. How anyone who calls themselves a writer, who claims to admire and respect the creative work of others, could do that to another writer is something I simply don’t understand.
//How anyone who calls themselves a writer, who claims to admire and respect their creative work of others, could do that to another writer is something I simply don’t understand.//
But what exactly are they DOING to the original author? I’m honestly not following you.
Let’s set slash/mpreg/weirdness aside for a second (I completely agree with you on that score. It’s terribly disrespectful to mangle someone else’s work that way.)
Suppose you end a season of Diagnosis Murder with a cliffhanger, thus leaving the fans in suspense all summer (I know next to nothing about the show or your books, but am guessing it follows some of the basic trends of mainstream TV, with season finales and premieres.)
Naturally, the fans will speculate/ponder/agonize on how you are going to resolve this cliffhanger. Naturally, they will meet on fan websites/chat rooms/message boards and try to figure out what the solution to your season-ender mystery will be.
Suppose a fan dreams up what they think/hope might be a good solution to the cliffhanger and writes it down, and posts it on a fansite for other fans to read and comment on. Suppose that fan meticulously follows YOUR characterization/established relationships/plotlines, and tries very hard to stay true to the spirit of the show as YOU have established it. Their goal is to give/get that “fix” while waiting for your cliffhanger-ending episode to be released in the fall.
How does that harm you, the original writer/producer?
I honestly don’t understand. Why do you feel so threatened by fanwriters? Are you worried that when people read a fanwriter’s work that they won’t like yours? (If so, I promise you, if there’s one thing ALL fanfiction enthusiasts agree on, it’s that “ain’t nothin’ like the real thing.” No fanfiction, however well-written, will ever replace the original in the fans’ hearts.)
So, legalities aside, I’m trying to understand your feelings on the subject. Most professional writers/producers I’ve talked to on the issue are either ambivalent or supportive of fanwriters; you’re the first pro writer I’ve been able to speak directly to who really has strong feelings AGAINST us.
We’re not your enemies, and we honestly don’t understand why you seem to think we’re working against you. I hope you’ll answer this.
Hey, I think that’s great…as long as the fanfic stays in your drawer. My problem is when you publish or post it on the net… then you are crossing an ethical and legal line. How anyone who calls themselves a writer, who claims to admire and respect their creative work of others, could do that to another writer is something I simply don’t understand.
Well, for X-Men: Evo, I’m hoping to actually get a story good enough to get it licensed, so I need critique from X-Men fans to do that, and considering one of the writers that I write fic for says she is actually flattered by it (J.K. Rowling) and I never step over that line into adult fic that makes her uncomfortable, I’m not really hurting anyone, am I? As for the other author I write fanfic for, you’ll be hard-pressed to a comment from him–he’s dead. I try to writ in what I hope is the spirit of his work, mostly to offset all the utter garbage that is out there. However, if the Tolkien estate does ever take offense with it, I’ll take it down at a moments notice.
In any case, why the animosity? Not all of us want to become published authors, no one is making profit off of their fanfic (and they shouldn’t be). This hobby, whether a waste of talent or not, is harmless. You might as well attack children who make their own version of a superhero halloween costume instead of buying them. Fanfic’s just as harmless.
As for admiring and respecting the published work of others, I fully intend to become a published author one day, and when I do, I don’t care what fanfic is written because the simple fact is that NOTHING will change my original story. It will always be there in its black print, either until the end of time or, like as not, until it is long forgotten.
As for the copyright infringement aspect, I never said I wouldn’t deny my guilt in a court of law were the creators of X-Men Evolution or the Tolkien Estate to sue me. I fully admit the illegality of what I’m doing.
There’s no question that there certainly is copyright infringement is taking place, but there is the question of whether it should even be considered copyright infringement. I personally don’t think so. Then again, I suppose I can’t talk until I’m actually published, but when I am, I doubt I’ll change my mind. I’d find people writing fanfic about my stories to be an honor, even with the horrible writers, because it meant that they LIKED what I wrote.
As for fanfic being a waste of talent, have you ever heard of model trains or stamp collecting? Bird watching? God forbid a hobby be useless but fun. I’m sick of this fast-paced society and the crappy mindset it supports–that everything in life has to be productive somehow. Whatever happened to fun?
Also, if the writing stays in the drawer, how do I get good critique? No-one reads original fic online and magazine editors rarely take their time to tell you what was wrong with your manuscript when they send it back with that rejection slip. How the hell am I supposed to get better? And do you have any idea how many original story critiquing communities have sprung up from fanfic communities? I have a solid base of readers that would be perfectly willing to tear my original stories apart to help me perfect them, thanks to fanfic.
and writers don’t kick back by writing fanfic
Some of them do. P.N. Elrod has said that she actually began writing fanfic *after* becoming a published author, because she became interested in “Blake’s 7” and there was no professional outlet for her B7 stories. She has also written a fanfic novella featuring her original characters/setting from her first series and Sam Beckett from “Quantum Leap”. All of which she does for fun.
So much for that argument. Want to try again, Bunky?
**How the hell am I supposed to get better?**
You mean to say, if you don’t write fanfic, your writing won’t get critiqued and you won’t learn anything?
What a load of shit!
Believe it or not, most writers don’t start by writing fanfiction garbage and putting it on the web. They write stories. ORIGINAL STORIES. They take writing classes. TO LEARN THE CRAFT. They join and/or start writing groups. TO LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER.
I take night clases at my community college in novel writing and screenwriting. I also belong to a half-dozen writing groups. We share our stories and novels all the time. No one writes fanfiction because, as Mr. Goldberg so correctly states, it’s not writing. If someone came in with a QUANTUM LEAP or BLAKES 7 story, we’d laugh them out of the room and not let them back in until they wrote something original.
So your argument is ridiculous and, frankly, quite lame. It shows your immaturity.
Annie
Annie, honey, your profanity and all-around rudeness certainly shows YOUR immaturity. We’re having a perfectly civilized conversation here, kindly don’t ruin it.
>>Believe it or not, most writers don’t start by writing fanfiction garbage and putting it on the web. They write stories. ORIGINAL STORIES. They take writing classes. TO LEARN THE CRAFT. They join and/or start writing groups. TO LEARN FROM ONE ANOTHER.
Fanfiction isn’t the end-all, be-all solution to being a good writer. It can help, but note alone if someone is serious about being a good writer.
Me? I just like to dabble in the universe.
>>I take night clases at my community college in novel writing and screenwriting. I also belong to a half-dozen writing groups. We share our stories and novels all the time. No one writes fanfiction because, as Mr. Goldberg so correctly states, it’s not writing. If someone came in with a QUANTUM LEAP or BLAKES 7 story, we’d laugh them out of the room and not let them back in until they wrote something original.
Good for you for trying to be a better writer. And I must say, you have lovely manners: you would laugh at them, and mock them, instead of simply saying, “We write only original fiction here.”
But no one is going to come into your group with a fanfiction story, unless said writer was seriously deluded about the line between “fanfiction” and “original fiction”.
>>So your argument is ridiculous and, frankly, quite lame. It shows your immaturity.
“We’d laugh them out of the room and not let them back in until they wrote something original.” Your words, not mine. Isn’t this the exclusional mentality typical of school kids?
I think you just showed me your own immaturity.
~EM
While I may not agree with the way Annie expressed it, I agree with her argument and her sentiments. Saying that writing fanfic is the only way to get real feedback on your creative writing simply isn’t true.
My brother Tod teaches writing at UCLA Extension and his students give each other plenty of feedback. A friend of mine also teaches at UCLA Extension, and she recently hosted a reading of her students’ work at a local Barnes and Noble. She invited me to come and read and give feedback to her students.
While I was there, I learned that most of the students belonged to writing groups.
Come to think of it, a writer we hired on MISSING last season, Kathy Boutry, was a member of a screenwriting group. She remained a member even after she got on staff because she enjoyed it.
There are LOTS of ways to get feedback on your writing without wasting time and talent on fanfic. It doesn’t strike me as a very convincing argument.
I take night clases at my community college in novel writing and screenwriting. I also belong to a half-dozen writing groups. We share our stories and novels all the time.
Good for you, honeybunch, but I’m too busy for all that, taking my gen ed courses to fulfill the prereqs for my journalism major/creative writing minor at Uni. I’ll be able take some creative writing classes once I actually take classes pertaining to my major junior year. I probably would be taking writing classes already, such as English comp I, but alas, I was exempt because of a perfect AP score. (Sorry to pull the “i m so smrt! ir a REEL riter!” card, but hey, you pulled it first with your community college courses and all that).
As for writing groups, my friends all hate writing, and I came from a high school that largely looked upon writing as a bore, so much so that I was the only one who signed up for the AP writing class, which caused me to be shunted into the AP English class instead. The funding for the literary magazine and school newspaper was taken away and given to the football team in my sophomore year. There were no literary groups to join–the only thing remotely resembling one was a slam poetry club, which really was more of an excuse for boys to get into the front of the room and freestyle rap about “ho’s and ice.”
Plus, I live in the freaking boonies, so it’s not like there’s a community center anywhere nearby where they’d have writing workshops.
And like so many, my family was too poor to send me to writing classes at our local community college, and I couldn’t use my money for it either, as I was saving up to help them pay for, you know, real college.
The net was all I had, and as I said before, people rarely review original stories online, so fanfic was my best shot. It worked–my writing improved, I met my best friend (and my best critic) through it, and now I have a bunch of fellow writers who are willing to critique my original stories whenever I ask.
And if you don’t believe fanfic helped me improve my “real” writing at all, I guess that $1000 Communications Essay-writing scholarship I won from my Uni doesn’t count for jack shit, huh? Even though, you know, I beat out every communications major and incoming communications major that tried to get it, from freshmans to seniors.
Also, a question, what title should I type in on Amazon.com to pull up one of those novels you were passing around your writing group? (Since the only way you’d have the right to be as arrogant as you are is if you were actually published).
Get off your high horse before you fall off, Annie. I wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself.
HOW FANWRITING TEACHES US TO WRITE…
I certainly concede that it is possible (and very valuable) to get feedback on original fiction via the internet or workshops or classes.
However, again, I submit that writing fanfiction is NOT a waste of time because we can ALSO get feedback on our writing skills from fanfiction.
I shall explain…
13 years ago: My English teacher said I was a good writer, but my work was still very much schoolgirl scrawling. My biggest problem was staring at that blank page and coming up with only half-baked ideas.
12 years ago: I got into fanfiction by writing Mary-Sues, those dreaded, author self-inserted characters with the most cloying traits imaginable and utterly one-dimensional personalities. (Good thing I didn’t have the internet, or flames would have ensued.)
6 years ago: I realized how much Sues were hated, and started focusing on ONLY writing about the canon characters–the characters fanreaders want to read about. I focused on really working on their personalities, staying true to the established characterizations of the original authors, and putting them in believable adventures. Plots were still a little bare (lots of hurt/comfort and cheap laughs)but constructive criticism ensued.
Now: I even dare to introduce original characters to the fanstory–characters with a point and purpose to compliment the canon. They’ve been well-received, and along the way, I’ve learned a lot about developing the plots, characters, and themes in my stories. I’m now co-authoring a fanstory with my mother, and the two of us have learned how to bounce ideas off each other. Rave reviews have ensued.
Now I’m in the midst of working on one original fiction novel myself, and researching for another novel that Mum and I will co-write. I’m also working on a screenplay.
But none of this would have happened without my fanwriting experience. I’m sure many people make it as writers without ever dreaming up adventures for a world that already exists, and that’s fine.
Still, I won’t stop fanwriting. Ever. And I don’t think it’s been a “waste of time.”
There are LOTS of ways to get feedback on your writing without wasting time and talent on fanfic
How the hell’s it wasting time and talent? I had fun, I learned how to writer better, and people enjoyed reading it. Besides, what I always had the most trouble with was description. It’s much easier learning how to describe things more beautifully when you’re not actually making them up as you go. Once I got better at describing the beauty of Henneth-annun, or Lorien, out of Tolkien’s Middle-Earth, it got easier for me to write about the places I made up in my own head because I was better at description in general. I would always get stuck in original writing just making the damn place up, let alone describing it, and now I don’t really have much of a problem doing either.
And for the love of God, above all…I want to know how it ended. I want to know what happened after the fourth age of Middle-Earth. I want to know if the world ever entered it’s steam age, how the growth of Men encroached on the natural world. I want to know what happened to Hobbits, if the Dwarves ever died out. I want to know what Sam was thinking during the end of all things, when the mountain was crashing down on him and Frodo.
And J.R.R Tolkien’s dead. He can never tell me. The story of Middle-Earth, that world that I love, that drove me to make worlds and stories of my own, stops on that last page of the timeline in the appendices of the third book, with, “And when that ship passed…an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring…” How else am I supposed to know? How else am I supposed to even guess what might have happened?
So I wrote those things myself, hoping with every fiber in my being, that if Tolkien ever could see it, he’d think, “Hmm. Well, that’s about right.” The reason fanfic writers don’t keep it for the drawer, aside from critique, is that we need others to see it, others that know the world we love and love it too, and know how close it resembles the spirit of the original wor. We need them to say, “Hmm. Well, that’s about right.”
It’s like a fever, some glorious disease, that spreads from my mind to my fingers and then I’m typing up a fanfic for all to see that can. And that passion is a wonderful thing, because it spreads from the word you loved first to other worlds made up by others, and then, if you’re lucky, it spreads to the worlds you make up in your own head. I have an incredible, fanatic passion for Middle-earth, but that passion has spread and encompassed worlds and stories of my own design. I want to see them written down, and I want other people to see them on paper. I want them to love these stories as much as I love them.
I find what I do to be FUN, it helps improve my writing, others are entertained by it, the original author can’t see it, and even if he could, at least I’m writing in the spirit of his original work as best as I can. I’m still not seeing the problem here.
Would it be wrong for me to express my love for the H.P. Lovecraft mythos by writing a story of my own set in it? And to get it published? Many others have. Would it be wrong for me to express my love of Star Trek in the same way and get a fan novel published? If being paid is the only difference between me and Mr. Goldberg here, then don’t bitch at me for it–I’d like to get paid, too, thank you very much.
Besides, you never know if the Tolkien estate will authorize a collection of stories set in Middle-earth. If they do, at least I’ll have had practice.
Jocelyn,
Thirteen years writing fanfic? I’m sorry, but that’s sad. And after all that time–
//Now: I even dare to introduce original characters to the fanstory–characters with a point and purpose to compliment the canon.//
This reinforces one of my beliefs about people who write fanfic…you are so reliant on the crutches using another writers work has given you (ie the characters, setting, relationships, etc.) that you don’t develop the skills to come up with the same things yourself.
//Still, I won’t stop fanwriting. Ever. And I don’t think it’s been a “waste of time.”//
For an aspiring writer, fanfic IS a waste of time.
Thirteen years before you were ready to introduce original characters to fanfic? Yikes.
Mr. Goldberg, I’m sorry to have to ask this, but why are you being so dense? Did you actually understand the point of what Jocelyn said, or were you just reading through looking for a phrase you could twist to your own ends? Do you actually know how hard it is to make an original character who will mesh seamlessly with a universe you had no hand in creating? I have a feeling you don’t.
Here’s a challenge for you, which I’ll put a 50% chance on you ignoring, a 40% chance on you claiming would be a waste of time and then ignoring, and a 10% chance on you actually taking the time to do. You ready? Here it is:
Write a piece of fan-fiction, approximately 300-500 words in length. For preferance, I’d have you write something in Tolkien-verse, but it’s up to you. The only proviso is that it has to be something you’ve never worked in before. I won’t even ask you to introduce an original character – just try and get two or three of the Canon characters in-character.
To help you, these are the Canons I would be able to judge for myself – anything else, I’d need to ask around a little:
-J.R.R. Tolkien
-Terry Pratchett
-Star Wars
-Ken Macleod
-Labyrinth
-Pirates of the Caribbean
That’s the ones I can think of offhand. There may be a few more, so if you can’t do any of the above, do whatever you think you can, and I’ll see if I can’t find someone to give you a quick critique.
And you are free to offer a challenge in return, if you wish. Just as long as you complete this one.
Bill Rabkin wrote: to me, the newest episode of ER can never be “the only truth”… because it’s FICTION. It isn’t a real world subject to interpretation by those around it. It’s a fictional creation designed to tell a particular story or set of stories.
But I think it really comes down to how you view a work of narrative art. If it is indeed a picture of “truth” to you, then no wonder you want your chance to interpret it. But if you see it, as I do, as a self-contained work of art, then you have no desire to impose your own vision on it.
I’m slightly stunned at the idea that fiction isn’t open to interpretation: I’m no expert, but I think there are scores of English students and professors who would take issue with you there.
Just one example, James Joyce. I’m no expert on Joyce, I find him impenetrable but I know I’ve encountered books discussing exactly what he’s talking about in Ulysses. The same for writers like Hardy. Similarly, if you search Amazon, there are books of critical essays about Rowling’s Harry Potter – and it needs it. To say that the events of those books are open to interpretation is both true and insufficient, and there are implications in some casual remarks characters make in Rowling’s books which make the blood run cold.
What I think you mean is that to attempt to subject something like ER (or, I hesitate to say it, Diagnosis Murder) to the kind of literary analysis that Joyce or Hardy are given is, to use a term from SF (the Turkey City Lexicon, which you will find if you do a Google search on the title) a Rembrandt comic book – “incredible craftsmanship … lavished on a theme or idea which is basically trivial or subliterary”.
In this, and if this is what you mean, I think you do these forms a disservice. I can see nothing intrinsic which makes Joyce of greater worth than Rowling.
Lee Goldberg. My problem is when you publish or post it on the net… then you are crossing an ethical and legal line. How anyone who calls themselves a writer, who claims to admire and respect the creative work of others, could do that to another writer is something I simply don’t understand.
I’ve said before that I think you need to draw a line firmly between the ethical and the legal issues – they are quite different. I also think that despite my objection to his views, which I’ve outlined, Bill Rabkin has more of a grasp of this than you appear to.
The attitudes you hold are not self evident. Copyright is not the be-all-and-end-all and the fact that doing something may lead one to be sued does not, of necessity, make it immoral. The public are entitled to challenge ideas about characters in TV, books and movies; in writing fanfiction they have chosen to do so in a way you do not care for, but that does not remove their right to challenge. Take away fan fiction, and that essential desire to challenge the dominant reading may be replaced by something else.
Annie: I take night clases at my community college in novel writing and screenwriting.
One of the most important things I’ve learned from involvement with the wider fannish community is firstly, that things are different in different places – and to extrapolate that things were different in the past. That you can call yourself a writer and not realise that…well, I have not words for the insularity it exposes.
It’s nice that you can do that, and I’m really happy for you, but it’s not something available to everyone. They may live in rural areas where that kind of opportunity is widely open; they may live in poor countries, where that kind of opportunity is not widely open; they may have caring or work commitments which mean that they cannot take up that kind of opportunity even when it is available. They may, in fact, be isolated to a degree that participation in a writing circle of equals isn’t even possible – as was the case with most of the participants in the “Professionals” story exchange circuit of the mid-late 1970s.
I haven’t seen a response, either, to the argument put forward in part of the discussion that you can’t normally publish commercially even an original work which has been already published on the web.
I look forward to seeing what Lee, Bill, David and Annie make of D. Kelly’s challenge. Anyone can turn out dreck, but good fan fiction writing, writing believably in someone else’s universe is actually more of a challenge than I think most of you would give credit. I would back up the suggestion for a universe you’re not familiar with – and would suggest Harry Potter. From the amount of absolute tripe out there, the Potterverse poses particular problems for the aspiring fanfiction writer.
//I can see nothing intrinsic which makes Joyce of greater worth than Rowling.//
I do believe that Joyce — and Faulkner and Beckett and Tolstoy and Homer and many others — are intrinsically of greater worth than Rowling — and this is with no disrespect to the excellent work she has done. I suspect that if put to the question, she would agree with me. I also believe that Rembrandt, Renoir, and Lord Leighton, among many others, are intrinsically superior to Thomas Kincaid, Painter of Light, despite his huge popularity.
//I’m slightly stunned at the idea that fiction isn’t open to interpretation: I’m no expert, but I think there are scores of English students and professors who would take issue with you there.//
Not at all what I said. I was responding to someone — pardon me if it was you, I don’t remember and there are too many posts here to scroll back and find the correct one — who equated an episode of television to current events in the real world. Art exists to be interpreted. I don’t feel that rewriting is the same as interpretation.
Oh, I’ve been writing stories about other stories since I was a little kid–I just didn’t know it was called fanfiction until thirteen years ago.
“Sad?” I prefer the word “fun” myself.
(EASY, Huinesoron!) But perhaps Mr. Goldberg misunderstood me. Or perhaps I left an essential point out:
I didn’t always think about being a professional writer. To me, fanwriting was just a pasttime (though I did write a lot of BAD original poetry.) It wasn’t until I had nearly graduated college that I realized how much I loved to just WRITE, and started pondering whether I should give pro writing a try.
And I was introducing original characters to fanfic throughout those thirteen years–they just didn’t become GOOD characters (you know, with real depth and real personality and real flaws) until I’d had plenty of practice.
(And Mr. Goldberg, I’ll presume that you didn’t intend your post to be QUITE so condescending, and that I’m just being overly sensitive in reading it that way.)
D.Kelly has got you there, Lee Goldburg. You can’t do it, can you? You can write your oh-so-great original fiction (and, I, personally, think it lousy), but you can’t write a tiny little drabble of someone else’s work.
Here you have it: it’s hard. Not as hard as original fiction, maybe, but we fanfiction writers have a tough time of it. You know what happens if e put it up? People can insult us, our storylines, can rip us to bits. And that sucks, because flamers don’t leave email addresses! You have to slog and slave to get facts right. You have to labour over charecterisation. And if you muck up, the people who know it aren’t always kind. They tell you what they think, and, sometimes, it hurts.
Look, I’m trying to write a novel, so I guess I kinda see your argument. But I wouldn’t be able to write worth a darn if I hadn’t experimented with fanfic first. My grammer’s better. My charecters have personalities. And I wouldn’t be here without fanfic. I know it seems like we’re stealing, but we’re not. We do it out of love. In fact, we even try to ensure that all fanfic stays up to a reasonable standard!
So, please, don’t lump us all together. We are not like sheep. Nor are we dragons.
*Bows.* Thank you for listening.
Bill Rabkin wrote: I do believe that Joyce — and Faulkner and Beckett and Tolstoy and Homer and many others — are intrinsically of greater worth than Rowling — and this is with no disrespect to the excellent work she has done.
So, and this is a predictable question, what is it about their work which makes it so much better – of more intrinsic worth – than hers? Is it simply that they are old dead (mostly) white men? Or is it some quality that their work has that hers hasn’t – and if so, what is that quality? Or is it simply that very many years of scholarship has accepted that these are good writers whose work is worth studying, while others are not?
Or are you making the assumption that because her work is for children, that it’s not of the same level of worth? And where does that leave writers like Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, or Milne? And, if we want living writers, what about Philip Pullman?
Now, if you were to say that Pullman is a very much better writer than Rowling, and his work deserves to make him at least as rich as she is, then I might have some sympathy with you. Judged on pure technical merit, Pullman has every reason to spend his spare hours putting pins into a wax model of Rowling for having the kind of success she has with the standard of work she puts out. (Which I’m sure he doesn’t; he has very much better things to do.)
Mr. Goldberg, you are hardly in a position to tell us about how to write good fiction in light of the quality (or lack thereof) of your original fiction (comments posted elsewhere, so I won’t repeat myself). Nor are you in a position to say if it’s possible to improve writing skills through writing fanfiction, as the way you learn is not necessarily the way another learns and improves, or that a piece of writing is crap simply because it’s fanfiction as opposed to original fiction. I’ve read fanfiction where the quality of characterization is dead-on to the original, the descriptions vivid, the telling of the plot engaging. The person has skill and talent and will go far should they ever write original fiction. I’ve also read original fic with 2D characters that whine and angst, weak to no plot, lousy description, and have appalling grammar, spelling, and mechanics. That their work is original does not change the fact that the quality is crap and they need to do a lot of work to improve as a writer.
If someone improves their skills as a writer through fanfic, how is that a waste of time? Learning took place. And you can have talent on loan from God, but if your basic writing skills are lousy, you’re not going to get anywhere. If you write fanfic and take cues from the way a respected author wrote, you can learn what makes good writing and learn by example and improve that way. It’s also possible to learn through writing original fic and getting feedback. Both ways work. Your waste of time is someone else’s hobby. Your waste of talent may be a tool someone uses to practice writing. Your opinion is only that. Just an opinion. If someone thinks differently, you are in no place to tell them they are wrong or lay down absolutes on how to improve as a writer, considering the low level of quality your own written work exhibits.
D Kelly,
//Do you actually know how hard it is to make an original character who will mesh seamlessly with a universe you had no hand in creating? I have a feeling you don’t.//
Well, let’s see… I wrote episode of MONK, and I didn’t create that show. I wrote episodes of NERO WOLFE, and I didn’t create that character. I’ve also written for SPENSER FOR HIRE, SLIDERS, and many, many other shows were I hand no hand in creating the series, where my script had to “mesh seamlessly with a universe.” So yeah, I think know how hard it is.
(I also co-wrote a book with William Rabkin, SUCCESSFUL TELEVISION WRITING, that deals with the challenges of writing an episode of someone else’s show, capturing their voice, their characters, etc).
SUCCESSFUL TELEVISION WRITING:
But there you have it! Those are the same skills fanwriters prize! We’re not that different!
//Now: I even dare to introduce original characters to the fanstory–characters with a point and purpose to compliment the canon.//
This reinforces one of my beliefs about people who write fanfic…you are so reliant on the crutches using another writers work has given you (ie the characters, setting, relationships, etc.) that you don’t develop the skills to come up with the same things yourself.
Sir, I only recently discovered this debate. I am, frankly, rather insulted by your generalizations. The very aspects that you describe as crutches for the fanwriter are those you must use yourself. Do you not write stories for the Diagnosis: Murder extended universe? Doesn’t that mean that you use a setting, characters, and/or relationships previously written as Canon? For that matter, historical fiction, one of my favorite genres, does the same thing, with either more rigid adherence to history or greater extrapolation from it than many fanfics. I do not understand why you should insult Jocelyn. She obviously cares deeply about the universe she writes for and wants to remain consistent. Her attitude is very respectful toward the creator’s ideas.
When I was younger, I played make-believe with my brothers. We would pretend generic situations, true. There was a point when most of our games were along the lines of “this blanket is a ship and the sea is full of sharks and alligators”. But, once we began reading, we began to incorporate different fictional universes into our games. We played “Knights in Armor” based around King Arthur’s Round Table, Robin Hood, Three Musketeers, and many other run-around-the-yard-until-you-are-exhausted games. Later yet, we graduated to Star Trek games. One, called “Borg”, we played over and over. We pretended to be Starfleet officers on an away mission. The game had specific rules and objectives, and required everyone to remain “in character” while playing. Now, we are active role-players in several universes.
I ask you this, are our games any different? Our online role-playing games may be freely viewed on the internet. “Borg”, with a few spiffings-up, could be *sold* as an outdoor Star Trek game. How are these…childhood imaginings any different from well-written fanfiction? Either could be as widely publicized.
Is playing make-believe in someone else’s universe so bad? We do it out of respect and love and imagination.
I am a PPCer for both “Pirates of the Caribbean” and “Lord of the Rings”. I guard canon from the depredations of the disrespectful and the lazy. Yet, I am in the middle of a fanfiction story myself, and putting much effort into making it right. As in an original story, I check my facts for the time-period and area. It would not have the emotional impact I hope it will if it was not connected to “Pirates” canon, though, and I think it will provide an interesting examination of the character I am focussing on.
Canon can not cover everything, especially in a movie. There is simply not enough time to go into the past of each character and map out how they got where they are now. With imagination and care, the fanwriter may remedy that to some extent.
I hope that you will respond to D. Kelly’s challenge. I would be extremely interested in seeing the result.
Robin O’Brien
I would like everyone to note that Mr. Goldberg has completely ignored my challenge. I’ll restate it here, in case he somehow missed it, and even add a bit.
Mr. Goldberg (or, indeed, anyone else who has claimed that fanfiction is a waste of time and suchlike), I hereby challenge you to prove that fanfiction is easy, due to the fact that it’s set in someone else’s universe. To this end, I request that you write a short piece of fanfiction, 300-500 words (or more, if you wish), for any fandom you have not worked in before. You are not permitted to get editorial assistance from the creator(s) of that universe, nor from anyone else. This is to be entirely your own work.
In return, I will write a similar length piece of original fiction, on any topic you choose, provided I have some knowledge of that topic. We can then get someone from the PPC to check your story for quality, while you or someone of your choice judges mine. Thus we will know whether a) Fanfiction is easy, and b) Fanfiction helps writing skills.
[Slams gauntlet onto the table] I make this challenge before all witnesses present here. I urge you not to back down. Or… are you afraid?
// Do you not write stories for the Diagnosis: Murder extended universe? Doesn’t that mean that you use a setting, characters, and/or relationships previously written as Canon?//
I established the “canon.” You may not be aware, coming into this late, but William Rabkin & I were the executive producers/principal writers of Diagnosis Murder for years.
One of the basic arguments in defense of fanfic… though stated in many different ways … is “we write fanfic because writing something from scratch would be hard. Fanfic is practice for original writing.”
I can see how that might be true to a degree. But there’s a fundamental difference, I think, between people who write fanfic for fun and those who aspire to be writers. Those who aspire to be writers, in my view, aren’t actually helping themselves learn their craft by toiling in fanfic for very long. It becomes a crutch…and, at a certain point, you’ve got to toss the crutches… get out of your creative wheelchair… and start exercising your legs, or you will never walk on your own…and your legs will just atrophy and wither away. You need to start taking steps on your own, two feet. (How’s that for a tortured, and cliched, metaphor?)
Easy now, Huinesoron And Company. He may not have had time yet.
Although I too will happily tackle an original fiction on the topic of his (or anybody else’s) choice if he or one of the other fanfiction opponents would like to tackle a fanfic.
He’s made at least two posts since it was issued, one of which referred to a different part of the same comment. If he’s busily writing away, then fine. But I’d like some sort of ‘I’m doing it right now’ if that is the case. Or even an ‘I’ll do it next weekend’.
Heck, ya know, I’m up for it anyway. Shall we storm the PPC and GAFF boards with an original fiction challenge and post our stories on FictionPress, just to hold up our end?
What say you?
The question is, do we exchange original plot bunnies (story ideas, for the uninitiated who might be reading) or does everyone have to come up with something ENTIRELY from scratch?
Mr. Goldberg? Any suggestions?
I will accept that you are directly part of the canon-process, then. However, you said that
One of the basic arguments in defense of fanfic… though stated in many different ways … is “we write fanfic because writing something from scratch would be hard. Fanfic is practice for original writing.”
This is not necessarily so, especially in well-written fanfiction. To write well and consistently about a place or a person means that you must research that person or place and know enough about them to write them well. Please see my previous note about historical fiction.
But there’s a fundamental difference, I think, between people who write fanfic for fun and those who aspire to be writers.
Exactly: not every fanfic writer wants to be a pro, you know. And those that do typically devote themselves to original stories as well. I have several fanfics running, as well as several originals. It pretty much guarantees that I always have something to write, which is nice, as I can keep the juices flowing when I run into writer’s block with my original stuff.
I’m seeing two conflicting thoughts here:
I established the “canon.” You may not be aware, coming into this late, but William Rabkin & I were the executive producers/principal writers of Diagnosis Murder for years.
But there’s also:
Well, let’s see… I wrote episode of MONK, and I didn’t create that show. I wrote episodes of NERO WOLFE, and I didn’t create that character. I’ve also written for SPENSER FOR HIRE, SLIDERS, and many, many other shows were I hand no hand in creating the series, where my script had to “mesh seamlessly with a universe.” So yeah, I think know how hard it is.
You’re completely crutchless then, huh? Created all those series yourself? If you find it so contemptuous to write stories based on other stories then stop doing it yourself, you hypocrite. Just because you get paid and I don’t…
Hell, you think I wouldn’t love writing for one of the series I enjoy as a profession? Before I do that, I have to make the stories good enough, and I need help to do that.
Anyway, to all the fanfic-defenders out there: I suggest we just give it up. We’ve wasted way too much time on this and it’s not like the man holds the fate of fanfic in his hands or anything. The most he could do is get Diagnosis Murder fanfic banned, boo hoo hoo. He’s just a no-talent, second-rate hack desperately trying to fend off the reality of his own inferiority by pulling the “Oh, what a waste of your talent; you’re so much lower than me” card.
It would be entirely different if he were actually, you know, a good original author.
So, I’m out. And it’s just a suggestion, and I’m only offering it since I recognize quite a few names on here, but I think you should do the same. It’s not like we’re going to change his mind or anything, and even if we could, why does it matter in the least anyway?
//So, and this is a predictable question, what is it about their work which makes it so much better – of more intrinsic worth – than hers? Is it simply that they are old dead (mostly) white men? Or is it some quality that their work has that hers hasn’t – and if so, what is that quality? Or is it simply that very many years of scholarship has accepted that these are good writers whose work is worth studying, while others are not?
Or are you making the assumption that because her work is for children, that it’s not of the same level of worth? And where does that leave writers like Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, or Milne? And, if we want living writers, what about Philip Pullman?//
Yes, my point exactly was that these writers are superior because they’re dead white males. Unlike, I suppose, Tolkien, Lewis, or Milne. Frankly, I think that’s an ignorant — in fact, despicable — accusation.
But I’m going to move past it and answer some more of your question. The fact is that the writers I listed, whether or not you like or understand them, have transcended their time and become part of the global culture. Their works resonate in reader after reader. They raise questions about the human condition that remain compelling hundreds, in some cases thousands, of years after the authors died.
You think Shakespeare was the only writer of his day? That there were only four Russians writing fiction in the 19th century? Of course not — Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and Pushkin and Gogol (and I’m sure I’m leaving out another couple here) are the ones we continue to read today. They’re the ones who speak to us. It’s not that years of scholarship have conditioned us to think these writers are great; it’s that people finding these authors great have sparked years of scholarship. (Although I am aware there is some give and take between the two ideas, but this is an exchange on a blog, not a doctoral dissertation.)
As for Rowling, I personally find her work amusing but not significant. (Except in that it’s sparked a boom in fantasy publishing and filmmaking, about which I’m very happy.) On this subject, my opinion has about as much predictive value as yours. There’s only one way to find out if an author proves to have historical significance, and that’s to let history tell us. God knows, when they were writing, Pearl Buck and John O’Hara seemed like more important writers than Faulkner and Fitzgerald. Who reads them now?
As for Tolkien, I think history’s verdict is rolling in, and it’s pretty positive. (His fascinating contemporaries like Eddison and Peake, alas, seem to be relegated to being seen as oddities. Which, I suppose, they are, but I do like reading them.) Milne seems to be doing pretty well on the surface, but I wonder how many kids actually read Pooh these days, as opposed to accepting the hideous Disney versions? C.S. Lewis comes in and out of fashion — in right now, partially because of the renewed interest in fantasy, and partially because some semi-insane fundamentalist Christians want a Jesus-friendly fantasy they can hand their kids instead of devil-worshipping Harry Potter. (The truly crazy ones want to ban all fantasy.) I loved the Narnia books as a kid, but haven’t read them since, and I’ve never tackled that science fiction trilogy. Of course, Lewis’ legacy must also include his critical and spiritual work.
As for Pullman — who I can’t believe you are recommending, since he commits the unforgivable sin of being a white male — I loved His Dark Materials. I thought it was brilliant and subversive, and that it deserves all its great success. I hope the movie works.
But I’m not yet willing to elevate him to the level of Shakespeare.
//Mr. Goldberg (or, indeed, anyone else who has claimed that fanfiction is a waste of time and suchlike), I hereby challenge you to prove that fanfiction is easy, due to the fact that it’s set in someone else’s universe. To this end, I request that you write a short piece of fanfiction, 300-500 words (or more, if you wish), for any fandom you have not worked in before. You are not permitted to get editorial assistance from the creator(s) of that universe, nor from anyone else. This is to be entirely your own work.//
I guess you haven’t been paying very close attention here. And since Lee hasn’t answered your challenge, I, as his partner, will:
We get paid to write other people’s characters. It’s our job to come up with new stories for existing franchises (which is the same as a “fandom”, I suppose).
We don’t knock off a Monk for the heck of it. We do it because the gentleman who runs the show has asked us for one.
If we’re going to write in our free time, which we do, it’s not going to be fanfic. We’re writing the stories that are uniquely ours.
Why would we do for free the very thing we make our living at?
Must I keep repeating myself? No, wait, I’ll repeat other people instead. I believe it was Mr. Goldberg himself who said that what he does is okay, because he a) has permission, and b) works /with/ the original authors, giving them final creative control. In effect, he gets someone else to make the characters right while he plays around. Do you see my point?
And anyway, it’s only five hundred words. See that post at the top of this page, the one Mr. Goldberg wrote in his blog? Four hundred and seventy-seven. I don’t think it would be a terrible strain, do you?
To Mr. Rabkin:
I am aware that Shakespeare & comp. have achieved the status of classics, as compared to contemporary writers. I agree here. Some of today’s writers will become classics and some will remain popular-yet-mediocre or will be forgotten.
What I don’t get is where you see the difference, artistically, between writing derivative works of classics and of contemporary authors. Is it True Art and personally fulfilling only to write derivative works of great authors, and to determine who is great we must wait for the verdict of history? Writing derivative works of authors I personally find amazing, regardless of history’s opinion, or of the not-truly-great-yet-still-charming ones is inherently somewhat lower, regardless of quality? Honestly, I’m not following you. The process is the same.
Where I see a difference is not in the process of writing itself, or in the quality of results, but in the reception such works get. Derivative works based on classics are widely understandable and can be published, thus they are respectful. Fanfiction is obscure, since it is only understandable to those already familiar with the original work.
As far as the quality of derivative literature, I would argue that it depends primarily on the writer’s abilities; the status of a classic is of no help here. I could direct you to much Shakespeare badfic, were I cruel. And since the public is only familiar with those classics-based derivative works that actually get published, their image is spared from much drivel that doesn’t get past editorial control.
So, do you disagree with what I have said? If you do, why?
And please, don’t get into the circular argumentation again: the legal and ethical points were already argued ad nausea, as the ‘time-wasting’ point (sorry for the pun).
My question is: If a writer wrote a beautiful derivative work based on Hamlet, and another, equally beautiful derivative work based on The Lord of the Rings, would the second one be automatically a lower form of art and less quality? (Until LotR’s copyright runs out and LotR verily becomes a classic – then, all of a sudden, our fanfic becomes a great work of art.) Honestly, I am puzzled.
I promised myself not to become involved in this conversation, believing I’d said enough on the subject. But, what the heck, I love a good debate.
The major difference between the works of fanfic writers and Mr. Goldberg is that the majority of the former work with prose, not simply dialogue. They have to capture the series for their audience without the benefit of actors emoting, good direction, and a musical score. Mr. Goldberg, having read your book excerpts, I would say that your forte is most definitely not prose. You’ve been very lucky to have worked with someone as talented as Dick Van Dyke, who could take pablum like most of the scripts for Diagnosis Murder and make them palatable.
And I still remain curious about your answer to my earlier question:
//Yes. They aren’t your shows. They aren’t your characters. You don’t have the consent of the authors/copyright holders.//
So, if I’m understanding this position, you’d rather these series — which means the talents of the actors, writers, producers, directors that preceded you (most probably dead at this stage in the game, anyway) — remain largely unremembered or otherwise forgotten? Better that, then having even a slightly interested “fan” community.
D. Kelly wrote on 10/18/04 @ 10:53 a.m.:
Mr. Goldberg (or, indeed, anyone else who has claimed that fanfiction is a waste of time and suchlike), I hereby challenge you to prove that fanfiction is easy, due to the fact that it’s set in someone else’s universe. To this end, I request that you write a short piece of fanfiction, 300-500 words (or more, if you wish), for any fandom you have not worked in before. You are not permitted to get editorial assistance from the creator(s) of that universe, nor from anyone else. This is to be entirely your own work…
While I completely support your reasons for issuing the challenge, neither Mr. Goldberg nor Mr. Rabkin can answer it, at least not with the subjects you’ve chosen. Both gentlemen are probably members of WGA (Writers Guild of America), as well as other industry unions and guilds. If they wrote any fanfic in the fandoms you’ve listed and posted it publicly, they could be stepping on the toes of their colleagues — men and women who they might one day have to go to with cup in hand for a job.
You might want to consider re-issuing your challenge using works that are in the public domain (The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Aeneid, Mort d’Arthur, Robin Hood, etc.).
Pepper
P.S.: You do realize it’s just a TV show — Lt. Steve Sloan, Diagnosis: Murder
… whether you’re in the industry or not.
P.P.S.: I’m assuming line credit belongs to either you or Mr. Rabkin.
//Must I keep repeating myself? No, wait, I’ll repeat other people instead. I believe it was Mr. Goldberg himself who said that what he does is okay, because he a) has permission, and b) works /with/ the original authors, giving them final creative control. In effect, he gets someone else to make the characters right while he plays around. Do you see my point?//
Yes, and that is that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. We do not “get someone else to get the characters right while” we “play around.” We get the characters right or we don’t work again. You don’t get the charaacters right and someone chastises you on the internet.
You decide where the pressure is greater.
Hm, I believe that you’re being a tad silly, here. And making a lot of verifiable errpors.
The people that said “it’s not a copyright violation if you don’t make money off it” were in fact corrected by several other posters witha better handle on copyright law.
I also foudn this rather amusing:
” The big difference between me and a “fanfic” author is”
…that you don’t know that fanfic is a term that needs no quote marks when discussing it, for one. It’s incorrect formatting (the term “fanfiction” has appeared in numerous print media, therefore, the more liberal dictionaries such as American Heritage will soon be adding it to their word lists, if they haven’t already; therefore, it is a real word, and needs no quotes), please stop. It looks silly, and looking sily hurts your argument, Mr. Goldberg. Just something to consider before your next entry mentioning it.
“a) I’ve been authorized by the copyright holders to write stories using these characters and b) I was the executive producer of the show. ”
The creator of the Buffy, Angel, and Firefly TV series, Joss Whedon, has expressed his approval of fanfiction. The makers of the Stargate TV series seem to not care (as one of the actors put it: “Well, if it makes the fans happy, [we figure that] it’s OK. [It’s all in good fun]”). JK Rowling’s lawyers only persecute the nasty pornographic and pedophilic fanfiction. She’s flattered by fanfic in general. Terry Pratchett is fine with fanfiction of his work so long as it is not printed where he has to see it (he’s specifically said as such, too).
“I am not stealing the intellectual property of others which is what “fanfic” authors do.”
Now, I can understand with your own work, Mr. Goldberg. You are allowed to keep a tight rein on your own work, and if you don’t want fanfic, fine. But not all fanfiction is stealing in every sense of the word, and you certainly do not speak for everyone. While I understand your feelings in regard to fanfiction of your own work, please keep other people out of it. Especially when they all seem to convieniently either be nameless or “too scared to come forward”.
What about the above cases, where the creators delibrately ignore it saying things like “It’s just the fans having a little harmless fun”, or like JK Rowling, who actually approves of it in cases where it’s not nasty pedophilic sex stories?
“You are writing about characters you neither created nor own. ”
Considering that if I recall, you did not originally create Diagnosis Murder, you’re doing the same thing, just managing to get paid for it. Considering how cheezy the show is, and how it rarely takes itself seriously (I have watched it a number of times, so I should know how it comes off)? I find it a bit funny that you take such a vehement stance. You’re not writing War and Peace; you’re writing a simple, cheezy, repetitive show that fills the need for simple, cheezy, repetitive shows that peopel can watch when they don’t want to overtax their brains. I just find it odd that you can find enough steam to be snobbish about this kind of thing when you make the kind of thing that I tend to watch when I have nothing else to watch.
Also, in regards to getting paid for it versus not? I’ll have to dig up my old copy of Writer’s Digest that I saw it in, but I saw a reference there to a fanfiction writer in the Stargate: SG1 fandom who was good enough of a writer to snag a professional publishing contract writing SG1 novels. And they hired her, of course, based on her fanfiction.
I’m not saying that you cannot forbid fanfiction of your work; far from it, I believe that you have the right to do so, as they are legally derivitive works (although parodies are actually protected by law, as I’m sure you’ve merely neglected to mention). However, you seem to be implying that you are speaking for everyone, when you very clearly are not. Moreover, you are taking several others’ comments out of context and in several cases, twisting their words into meaning something that they did not intend them to. This is not good form.
You have the right to handle your own work as you see fit. However, this does not also give you the right to speak for others, especially when many of them do not actually share the same views, or supposedly “refuse to be named” (I can’t believe that a grown man would actually believe that in this day and age, so many unnamed sources would automatically be taken as being real and in agreeance with the author of a piece, especially if said piece is not only online, but in someone’s blog).
To be frank, while I’m a casual fan of DM, I’m beginning to resent ever having watched it. Silly? Perhaps. But the fact that your immaturity (I point to your posts in the thread linked here, which show a shocking lack of common sense and reason for a man of your age. I’ve seen 13 year olds better able to keep a lid on their tempers, for goodness’ sake; why on Earth you would link to said thread when it only serves to hurt your argument, I’ll never know), and your inability to properly debate, to accept that there is even another logical side to the debate that disagrees with you for perfectly valid reasons? That is a big turnoff. I can safely say that you probably have turned a lot of people who’ve seen this off of your novels, that’s for sure.
As for myself, I am an aspiring novelist and screenwriter. If I see any good fanfiction of my work? I’ll be happy as a clam, because not only did somebody enjoy it, but my characterizations must have been as good as I’d hoped, since they seemed clear enough for someone other than myself to work with effectively. As for bad fanfic, I’ll poke fun at it (some of it really, really lends itself). Really, as many authors and actors will say, “It’s just the fans having a little fun”, and if they can manage to write pretty darn good once in a while to boot, that’s great. If not, we’ll rib each other. All in good fun.
Again, I can see not wanting to have derivitive works made without your permission. However – and I only say this this often so that it is absolutely clear – you most certainly do not speak for everyone, not even in the television industry. So please, Mr. Goldberg, stop pretending that you do?
– Jamie W.
When did it become a crime to bounce ideas around? I realize that fanfics get into some messy legal issues as far as copy write and all that, but as far as the reason for it? We’re not writing it to take something away; we’re adding our thoughts where we hope they won’t mess up something we already like. Not only do I get to write my ideas out and let people see them but If I decide I want to see what happens if so-an-so dies or what’s-his-face didn’t leave, I can. What’s more, as far as maturity goes…when did maturity become the important part of writing? All I’m interested in is playing with the relationships in the series and maybe some “what if” s. why do I need to act mature to do that? I realize not everyone agrees with me, and I know that writers might not like seeing their stuff messed with, but if we’re not hurting you, just leave us alone! As far as fanfics being a waste of talent and/or time, I’m not even sure of how to respond. What I will say is that for a lot of people, including most of my friends, when we’re writing fanfics, we’re playing. Do you tell a kid that he can’t pretend to be superman just because as far as you’re concerned he’s not good enough at pretending to fly? I, at least, am willing to acknowledge that the original authors are much better than fanfics authors, but as far as I’m concerned that’s not the point. I recall a quote from a very old movie made for the soul purpose of mocking people who take the “no play” attitude:
“Your ‘reality’, sir, is all lies and deceit, and I am delighted to say I have no grasp of it what so ever!”~ Baron Munchousen
I think it applies. I’m not saying, “fanfics are good, how dare you slander them!” because most of what you’re saying is true, but just because they don’t do us good doesn’t mean they are a waste and just because they aren’t the works of art that the originals often are doesn’t mean that they aren’t wonderful in their own way. We aren’t blind, we just see things differently and the one eyed man of close-mindedness isn’t king.
Okay before I address everyone, I’d like to say a few things about myself. I’m twenty-one years old, and I’ve been a fanfic writer since I was fifteen. Five years, and where has it gotten me? I’m now going professional and writing my first novel. Now, in MY opinion, that five years was hardly a waste of my talent. Because I posted my fanfics on the net, I got feedback and learned to improve my writing.
Enough about me though, here is what I want to say to everyone:
To Mr. Goldburg: If you think of yourself as a “better” writer, why do you bother arguing with fanfic writers? Frankly,I think you should just focus on your own writing and stay out of the business of the fanfic writers. Just leave us alone, live and let live. What we do with our talent and how we spend our time is none of your concern. Grow up and stop picking fights, because you’re not going to win. All your arguements and rebuttles here are weak, one-sided, and repetitive.
To all fanfic writer/readers who are arguing with Mr. Goldburg: As a fellow fanfic writer/reader, I understand you’re outrage over Mr. Goldburg’s statements over what we all do and enjoy. But I must advise not to bother arguing with him or getting angry over what he says. He’s simply not worth the time and effort. As fanfic writers, we have to acknowledge that not alot of people like what we do and that they’re entitled to their opinions. As long as Mr. Goldburg does not personally attack anyone ( sending threatening e-mails, letters if he ever finds out any personal information about us, going to our houses to personally threaten us face to face,ect), he has the right to think whatever he wants. If he wants to blame his lack of success on us, let him.
I’ll just basically say the same thing to you as I said to him: focus on you’re own writing and ignore the no-talent,pompus, big-headed hack.
To all fanfic writer/readers who are arguing with Mr. Goldburg: As a fellow fanfic writer/reader, I understand you’re outrage over Mr. Goldburg’s statements over what we all do and enjoy.
sending threatening e-mails, letters if he ever finds out any personal information about us, going to our houses to personally threaten us face to face,ect)
You call yourself a writer? Thoses sentences are a fucking mess. “I understand you’re outrage?” “ect?” “alot” “focus on you’re own writing?” Learn the difference between YOUR and YOU’RE (which is short for YOU ARE as in YOU ARE ILLITERATE).
By the way, his name is GOLDBERG, you idiot. In addition to learning how to write, you might also consider learning how to read.
Fanfic?
Well, just keep writing it and maybe one day you will all realise that you do want to write something that you have created yourself. Not just leaping on somebody else’s bandwagon…
Lee Goldberg was asked to write the DM books, so obviously fanfic does not apply to him. All this time I was under the impression he was/is a professional writer; not a fanfic one! I don’t think I am wrong however and look forward to more of his books.
Well, Notamoron, I do consider myself a writer and a human. I make mistakes, and believe me if I could I would correct the mistakes I made. I would thank you for pointing out those mistakes, but I feel your insulting my ability to read and write doesn’t deserve a ‘thank you’.
Also, writing in Caps is considered very rude. It would serve you well to learn some manners.
You also miss-spelled PHOENIX. Duh.
I feel your insulting my ability to read and write doesn’t deserve a ‘thank you’.
Congratulations, you used YOUR correctly. You’ve made a step in the right direction (one most people make by the fifth grade, but kudos anyway). But the correct way to have written that sentence would have been:
“But I feel that you insulting my ability to read and write doesn’t deserve a ‘thank you.'”
I guess you need to hone your craft a bit more with Kirk/Spock slash before venturing out into the real world of writing.
(And you wonder why fanficcers are the ridiculed??)
Notamoron, you really are a moron, a bored one. Don’t you have anything better to do then point out spelling and grammar mistakes? You must not have much of a life (or a job) if that is all you do. Either that or you’re just a troll.
Besides, internet communication (chat rooms, forums, ect) doesn’t require correct spelling and grammar. You see it all the time. Just because people make mistakes does not mean that they’re stupid and need further education, it just means they don’t put much care into writing comments.
And for the record, I’m not a fanficcer, though I support fan fiction writing because it’s better then doing drugs and burning small animals alive. Jesus, some people act as if fan fic is a crime against humanity or something.
Hey, if fanfiction were copyright infringement, THEY WOULDN’T ALLOW IT. Do you think these big entertainment companies are totally oblivious to the fact that they have fanbases (large or small), which may or may not include the writing of fanfiction? They aren’t that ignorant. They know that people are writing stories using their characters. They also know, however, that these people aren’t trying to claim these characters as their own and make a profit off them, so they allow it. Hey, if you’re pissed just because someone wrote a fanfiction about your creation, you can try to get them to stop if you want to–chances are you’ll succeed. But you can’t outlaw fanfiction as a whole based on your own little whims. (Same goes for abortion, but… that’s another rant for another day.)